Posted on 01/05/2006 1:45:36 PM PST by fuyb
The Florida Supreme Court struck down a statewide voucher system Thursday that allowed children to attend private schools at taxpayer expense - a program Gov. Jeb Bush considered one of his proudest achievements.
It was the nation's first statewide voucher program.
In a 5-2 ruling, the high court said the program violates the Florida Constitution's requirement of a uniform system of free public education.
About 700 children are attending private or parochial schools through the program. But the ruling will not become effective until the end of the school year.
Voucher opponents had also argued that the program violated the separation of church and state in giving tax dollars to parochial schools, and a lower court agreed. But the state Supreme Court did not address that issue.
Under the 1999 law, students at public schools that earn a failing grade from the state in two out of four years were eligible for vouchers to attend private schools.
Chief Justice Barbara Pariente said the program "diverts public dollars into separate private systems parallel to and in competition with the free public schools," which are the sole means set out in the state constitution for educating Florida children.
The ruling was a victory for public schools across the state and nation, said Ron Meyer, lead attorney for a coalition that challenged the voucher program.
"Students using vouchers will now be welcomed back into Florida public schools," Meyer said in a statement. "It decides with finality that the voucher program is unconstitutional."
The governor had no immediate comment on the ruling.
Anticipating the possibility of such a decision, Bush has been working on a backup plan to keep voucher students in private schools by providing tax credits to corporations that give students scholarships.
Clark Neily, an attorney who argued the case for voucher advocates, called the decision "a setback for those parents and children trapped in failing schools."
The U.S. Justice Department filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support the state. Voucher opponents included the state teachers union, the Florida PTA, the NAACP and the League of Women Voters.
The ruling did not directly affect nearly 30,000 students in two other voucher programs for disabled and poor children, but it could be cited as a precedent.
Why pay for parks they don't use or roads that they don't drive on or prisons that they don't inhabit?
There already is competition in schools. You are free to take your child from a public school and enroll them in the private school of your choice or even home school them. Public schools compete with the private schools and if the service that they provide does not meet the needs of their clientel then those people are free to take their kids elsewhere.
The tuition at the local Catholic high school runs about $6000 per year. That's a whole lot more than I pay to support my local schools through income and property taxes.
It isn't a monopoly. I can point to dozens of private schools in my part of town, and I know quite a few people who home school.
That's why I support vouchers or tax credits.
Vouchers and tax credits in what amount? The average family of 4 in my state have a household income of about $45,000 which means that their state income tax bill is somewhat less than $2000 per year. About half the state budget goes to education at all levels so maybe $1000 of their tax dollars can be said to support the public schools. Tuition for 2 at the local Catholic high school is about $11,000 per year. So how big a difference will my $1000 make if I get it back in a voucher? And if I get more than my $1000 back then isn't the state subsidizing my child's private school? And if the state subsidizes it then shouldn't they expect a say in how it's run and how gets admitted?
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
Exactly. Vouchers are the only mortal threat remaining to the homeschool movement. And they have "bait-and-switch" written all over them, as they will lead to more and more government control over private and religious schools.
Maybe happy in that eventually it will fail of its own volition -that could take a very long time?
It is true that sometimes the easist way to fundamentally fix or replace a failed system is to let it fail rather than continue subsidizing it and allowing it even the appearance of functioning adequately...
The question is how do conservatives accelerate removing the support and illusion that the failed system employs to keep it afloat - homeschool?
"This has almost nothing to do with "separation of church and state" (not a Constitutional imperative anyway). It has everything to do with the relative strength of teachers' unions and political clout at various levels."
You are absolutely right. This would mean that repairing a sidewalk in front of a church is unconstitutional. When money is payed to welfare recipients how many of those people in turn put a dollar in the collection plate? Therefore using the misconstrued, poor thinking of these judges welfare payments violate the separation of church and state because some of the money finds its way into churches.
What the rich Democrats mean is they do not want the poor White, Black,and Mexican children mixing with their children in the private schools.
You misunderstood me there. The $10,000 is not borne by the person alone, but by all taxpayers. Whatever and wherever the case, if there is $10,000 being paid to educate the student, someone pays for it. Someone pays for that person to get the benefit no matter what as in other "benefit" programs.
Interesting points.
Public education is an infringement upon the rights of the American people. Teaching belongs in the family, not the state. If certain like-minded groups want to pool resources, then let them do so at their own expense. Use our taxes for defense. Get government out of the education business now and forever.
Leeches. Suckers. Peddlers of mediocrity and moral relativism. That's our teacher's unions.
Silly question.
And I would be all for taking the schools out of government hands completely, and privatizing the whole thing.
Let me start off by saying my children attend public schools. They are suburban city schools, and they are pretty good. I have had a few problems with the liberal mentality, but have fought them each successfully.
My taxes are approximately $2100.00 per year, some of which obviously goes to mill levies. Let's assume that $1500.00 actually goes to the schools.
It costs $7500.00 per student in my district per year. If they give me a voucher of $7500.00, that means that still other people are helping to fund a private education for my children. If the voucher is only for the amount that I personally pay through the levy, then I only get a $1500.00 voucher. I used to send my oldest daughter to private school. We have three Catholic schools, and two charter private schools. The school I sent my daughter to was $13,000.00 per year.
Neither of the above voucher scenarios would cover that amount. So where does the rest of the money come from? My uncle owns a private school in Southern California. It is $30,000.00 a year per kid. No voucher in the world would cover that.
So, would private schools have to accept these children from failing public schools at a reduced rate?
Here is another problem I have with the voucher proposal. Say I own a private school. I have very strict standards for which students I will admit. Will I be forced by the government to accept children who do not meet my standards, but want to go to private school because their public school is failing?
If a public school is failing, odds are that the children who attend it have thus far received a sub-par education. Who would pay to catch these children up, given that children who attend private schools generally are far more advanced than public school kids?
Not to mention the fact that, I would think, the majority of children who are in areas where schools are failing would be inner city kids. Some of those kids would bring additional problems, such as behavior, attendance, and lack of parental involvement. Most private schools have no desire to accept those children, and parents who pay to send their children to private school have no desire to see those problems added to their schools. For many of them, those are some of the reasons they chose to put their kids in private school in the first place.
If I were a parent who paid to have my children sent to private school, I would be really angry if other people who did not choose to make the same sacrifices that I did could now have the same benefits that I had worked so hard for, just because they live in a crappy school district.
And what happens when private schools start denying entry to certain students? Since the government would be involved with the voucher funding, would that put private schools at risk for discrimination lawsuits? You can bet your bippy that the ACLU would be all too happy to start suing based on this or that kid not being accepted into a private school. Then I have a problem with private businesses being told how to operate, who to accept, and how much money they will be able to ask for from each of these children. You know if the government gets involved in funding children going to private schools, private schools will then be told how they can operate by the government. That is wrong.
Here's another problem I see. Given that there are so many fewer private schools, what happens when two or three public schools are deemed failures, and all of those kids receive vouchers? There are only so many private schools, many of which have waiting lists. There is not room in private schools for them to accept all of the children who would fall into this category, even if some of them would not qualify academically.
I just do not like this idea, for many reasons. You want to privatize the whole system, fine. But then we get back to the problem of some kids not getting an education at all, which is why we started the public school thing in the first place.
I say the government needs to address the NEA and their entities with an iron fist, and we fix the existing school system. That is the only solution that I think is fair.
Your choice as a parent is to evaluate the school system BEFORE you move into a neighborhood. Your choice is to move if you don't like the school, or work yourself to make it better.
Don't give me the "they don't have any other choice" whine. We all have choices. And when you make poor choices as a parent, your children suffer the consequences. Yes I think this voucher thing is a socialist piece of crap, and no, I do not think it takes a village to educate your child.
No two public schools are alike, either. They compete amongst themselves right now.
When I bought my current home, I thoroughly researched all of the public school information, and choose the best public district. Then I bought a house within that district.
That is the choice people have if they want to utilize the public school system. To say that these parents in failing districts have no choice is a big load of crap.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how this became an issue conservatives have gotten behind. Yet another government intervention program??? Come on. Everything they touch turns to crap.
We here in FLA have a rogue Supreme Court which was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court - narrowly. Does anyone require further argument for needing Alito? By the way, I, of course, voted for Bush in 2000 but I can scan to you a disastrously wrong vote I and other Floridians made in the same disputed election. I can tell why but that's another story. If you give me an e-mail you can send it along with my reply and post it for other FReepers. My computer skills are still too primitive! But I'm learning. RSVP if you're interested.
hillary's "it takes a village" book is nonsense. But it does matter to all of us that children get an education. If for no other reason, we will all be old someday, and will need doctors and bankers and military to keep us healthy and safe. That's why people who don't have children contribute to the education of children they didn't bring into the world.
The important thing is that the money we spend on education actually works for that purpose. Anyone who thinks we can educate every child equally is having a pipe dream. What we should be trying for is to educate every child to the best of their ability. And many of our public schools don't do that. I'm happy for you that yours does, but that's relatively rare these days.
And, yes, private and charter schools in most places are allowed to have entrance requirements.
Areas that do allow vouchers wind up with many schools for problem students - the "bad seeds", the special needs, etc. They just don't interfere with the bright kids who might go far.
And we don't all have choices. Do you honestly think that anyone would live in a crime-ridden inner city if they had a choice?
I should have addressed #97 to ALL FReepers!
There are a lot of us out there who would just love the choice to even have children, but that doesn't mean I don't have any choice. I can still do the best I can to live my own life and serve others. There are INDEED some who have no choice--those facing an incurable illness and such. Any time I start feeling sorry for myself, I need to think that there's someone else who has it MUCH worse than I do.
I remember some Dear Abby letters MANY years back. A teenage girl wrote how she wasn't happy because her parents were fairly strict with her (paraphrasing here). A soldier wrote back that happiness was being able to walk, happiness was being able to talk, and so on. It really put things into perspective for me as a kid. It makes me appreciate more than anything, those who fight for our freedoms and have to often give up family and all sorts of things as they are doing it. AND it helps me remember how blessed I am already and not to forget it.
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