US-German Relations - Berlin's Concern about America's Image

Der Spiegel ^ | January 4, 2006 | David Crossland

[Atlantic Bridge]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel can look forward to the red-carpet treatment in Washington next week as US President George Bush -- who never got on with her predecessor Gerhard Schröder -- hopes to signal a fresh start. But a top German official warns that despite improving trans-Atlantic ties, America's reputation among the European public is waning.

[Michael81Dus]

You never heard of individual guilt, have you? You never heard that Hitler was an Austrian, so that the dumb comment "from THE COUNTRY THAT GAVE the world Hitler" doesn´t apply to Germany?

You never imagined how life in a dictatorship is, have you? Then you´d know that you cannot expect EXTRA-ORDINARY achievements from the majority, otherwise, the actions of our heroes (like Schindler, Eisler, Stauffenberg, the Scholl´s, among many others) wouldn´t be considered EXTRA-ORDINARY. What would you have done when your jewish neighbour was about "to be ´relocated´ to the East", knowing that you were risking your life when you even spoke about it?

It is true that many Germans loved Hitler (by far not all, but that´s not what you see - you view and believe in the propaganda pictures from the Nazis which exactly wanted to show the world that he has no opponents). But there was also lots of fear, lots of distrust in the society, and secret opposition. Until his death, there were at least 39 serious attempts to kill Hitler.

I´m glad that my grandparents or grand-grandparents were not "Nazis". My ancestors weren´t in the underground either. But even if they were Nazis, would that be my problem? If the were heroes, would that make me better? No.

Whom did I blame for the holocaust? According to you, everybody but my country. But tell me, where did I say that? I blame noone else but the actual criminals. The silent majority is not to be blamed. I do not expect everybody to be a hero. I don´t expect people to stand up against oppressive regimes, especially when it was an unprecedented regime in history. But I expect people to refuse committing atrocities. So I can only blame those who committed crimes against humanity.

Whom do you put the blame on?

[Michael81Dus]

We´re willing to accept immigrants from the US. Christian religion and many children preferred. :-)

[americanbychoice2]

incorrect. It is very difficult for an American to emigrate to Germany.
Since I have worked there many times, I can tell you exactly what hoops you have to jump through. :)

[Michael81Dus]

I didn´t intent to start a discussion about immigration to Germany, rather to make a nice suggestion to stop our demographic problem. :-) By the way, immigration to Germany, especially for skilled people, has become much more easier during the last 6 years.

[americanbychoice2]

except for americans :)

[JeffersonRepublic.com]

"Whom do you put the blame on?"

The GERMAN PEOPLE! The Nazi party only gain power because of the GERMAN PEOPLE gave it to them.

It's interesting to see how many GERMAN PEOPLE try to dish Hitler off on Austria, and pretend like their country is innocent of the atrocities the GERMAN PEOPLE committed.

I'm not going to buy into your revision of history. The GERMAN PEOPLE are to blame for Hitler's destruction. The child of Nazis should be apologetic, not trying to rewrite history like they some how saved the world from Germany.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Sweet.

I do not buy your orgy of hate either. People like you tend to push everything into a simple black and white pattern. On this side we have the good heros and on the other side are the child-eating monsters. It is somehow a religion of hate. Guilt as a heritage. Guilt ad infinitum. I have bad news for you: This world is a littlebit more complex.

To tell Michael that he "as a child of nazis" is being responsible for the holocaust is simply ridiculous. Just as ridicolous as if I would make you responsible for the historical failures of your country.

Do you know what the problem in the ideas of the staunch common nazis was? They never learned to look between the black and white pattern. They never saw that there were many more colors. They only could think in two dimensions: Enemy or friend. They were really convinced of their intellectual BS.

This problem is not limited to nazi Germany. There are many more historical examples: Just think about the witch hunt in Salem/USA, Robbespierre and the Jacobin Club, Lenin and Trotzki, Mao and the culture revolution, Pol Pot, the Taliban etc. etc. etc.. They all were addicted to their dumb and crazy ideas. They all believed that people who are slightly different are monsters who should be put to death immediately.

Just think about it.

[Owl558]

"I then wondered what other weird things do Germans believe goes on in the States."

Funny. A couple of years ago a friend from Scotland came to visit california fully expecting to see gunfights breaking out in gas stations with the wounded allowed to die right there in the street because of our health care system. Of course, none of that happened although at one point, while driving through a rough neighborhood, I turned and asked him if he had his pistol. His look was priceless!

[Owl558]

Dude, take a breath. I admire your emotion and zeal, but its like you're holding the children guilty for the sins of their fathers. That isn't right. It ended over 60-years ago. My grandfather fought in North Africa, Italy, and France and HE somehow managed to forgive his enemies. It's an example worth reflecting on.

[JeffersonRepublic.com]

"It ended over 60-years ago. My grandfather fought in North Africa, Italy, and France and HE somehow managed to forgive his enemies. It's an example worth reflecting on."

You're right. I just have a problem with Germans who try to shift the blame of the arocities to the Austrians because Hitler was born in Austria or because the most loyal Nazi were Austrians.

I don't hold Mike responsible for the Nazis anymore then I hold myself responible for American slavery. The difference is I wouldn't blame the slave traders for American slavery.

[JeffersonRepublic.com]

I wrote:
"The child of Nazis [meaning Germans] should be apologetic, not try to rewrite history like they some how saved the world from Germany."

Your response:
"To tell Michael that he "as a child of Nazis" is being responsible for the holocaust is simply ridiculous."

Give me a break. Michael is trying to say that Austria gave Hitler his power because it's his place of birth and that the most loyal Nazis were Austrians. He continues to shift the blame away from the Germans and toward the Austrians.

You say I'm creating an "orgy of hate", yet I feel like I'm denying Michael the freedom of shifting the sins of the Germans onto the Austrians. No hate intended, but no love either.

[Michael81Dus]

Owl, AB, I fully agree with your posts, and so I don´t have to write my answer.

JR.com, you haven´t yet understood my posts on this thread, have you? I´m not denying that Hitler became German Chancellor and later President at the same time(= "Führer"), and that he was able to start the worst war in Europe´s history (I say Europe because actually WW2 started in the Pacifics 1936) because of that position.

But I slammed the comment "From the country that gave the world Hitler". Hitler was an Austrian, he was given to world by this country. So I intended to make this shi++y comment, which has no relation to the actual topic (see the title of the thread), looking foolish. Unfortunately, you don´t understand that. You fail to see that the homecountry is the country that gives the world a person. Einstein was given to the world by Germany, although he emigrated to the US later. Or would you deny that?

By the way, it was once a nice practise to address those who are mentioned in a post, too. You referred to me in your posts to AB and Owl, but I wasn´t addressed. Rethink your behaviour here.

[Atlantic Bridge]

You said:

"The child of Nazis [meaning Germans] should be apologetic, not try to rewrite history like they some how saved the world from Germany."

Germans are not nazis as a whole. This is complete BS. Do you think that my jewish compatriots were nazis? Do you think that all those brave Germans who gave their lives for their ethics or their idea of freedom were nazis? Do you think that I am a nazi (Be more than careful what you are saying!)?

You say I'm creating an "orgy of hate", yet I feel like I'm denying Michael the freedom of shifting the sins of the Germans onto the Austrians. No hate intended, but no love either.

The relationship between Austria and Germany is an interesting issue. Therefore you should know that the current dispartment between both countries is a artificial status that was imposed by the Prussians in 1848 for political reasons. It is called "smaller Germany" ("Kleindeutsche Loesung") and has never gotten into the de facto etnical mixture of the population. I am from southern Germany and I can tell you that every Austrian is much closer to me than somebody from -let's say- Berlin. The area I live in was over centuries part of Austria. I.e. the dialects are quite close. When Hitler united both countries most Austrians did not see that as an unfriendly act (of course there were - just like in Germany - many enemies of the nazis). I am convinced that even those who were against the nazis saw the "reunification" of "Greater Germany" ("Anschluss"; "Grossdeutsche Loesung") just as political logic. The Anschluss can be misunderstood as simply a military annexation of an unwilling Austria, but this lends itself to confusion with other German military occupations of European countries. It also tends to conceal the culpability of many Austrians in Nazi crimes, most of all the Holocaust, by perpetuating the myth of Austria as the first victim of Hitler's expansionism. Despite the subversion of Austrian political process by Hitler's sympathisers and associates in Austria, Austrian acceptance of direct government by Hitler's Berlin is a very different phenomenon from the administration of other collaborationist countries. After the war Austria and the Austrians of course used the chance to disburden them from the nazi-guilt in appointing that they were assaulted. This is understandable but is faking the real responsibilities.

More about this issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss

[Godebert]

They see America somehow as a christian theocracy with a Walt-Disney-justice that raids other countries because of Halliburton.

Halliburton rules! Buncha useless socialist Godless kraut bastards.

[FreedomPoster]

>>America's reputation among the European public is waning.

Germany's reputation among Americans didn't get any better when they released a terrorist murderer from prison in exchange for a German citizen questionable "hostage" in Iraq.

[FreedomPoster]

>>But there is one thing for sure: They will not take over the power here.

That sounds nice. However, you need to take a cold hard look at birth rates and demographics. Increasingly, it isn't "you" who is raising the next generation of "Germans".

Steyn has commented on this. While he uses hyperbole and can be somewhat flip, there is a hard edge of reality behind it all.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1550710/posts

[Atlantic Bridge]

Give me a break. Michael is trying to say that Austria gave Hitler his power because it's his place of birth and that the most loyal Nazis were Austrians. He continues to shift the blame away from the Germans and toward the Austrians.

Just to complete my answer:

Hitler was born, raised and "educated" in Austria. That means his teachers in Leonding/Fischlham laid the building blocks of the crazy ideology that has eaten his brain. If you have the time and the nerve you can read it detailed in "Mein Kampf", Hitlers notorious "bible".

His school in Fischlham/Austria

This is the hole were he was born in Braunau/Austria

Furthermore it is true that Hitler started his career as a "politician" after WWI in Munich/Germany after he served in the German Army as a "Gefreiter" private.

Personally I do not care if Hitler came from Germany, Austria or any other place since I am convinced that this phenomenon could happen anywhere if the premises are given. Therefore every one of us has to take care that this will never happen again.

[hershey]

Ms. Merkel should take the time to read V.D. Hanson's latest column and last week's Mark Steyn speech. Germany and the EU have graver problems than global warming.

[hershey]

Also in the mix is Germany's (as well as France and possibly even Sweden's)connivance with Saddam Hussein in the oil for food scandal. Thousands of Iraqi's died and Germany, France, etc., blamed the US, when they knew perfectly well what was going on. They got cheap oil under the table. Billions -- it went on for years. That's the bottom line, and they didn't care who died in the process or how many lies they told. I didn't see an apology in the MSM anywhere, but I probably missed it.

[Michael81Dus]

Just one correction, Germany has no big oil companies, and we had no oil contracts with Iraq.