Posted on 12/29/2005 4:24:45 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
The campaign against the alleged harassment of Hindus in Russia by the Orthodox Church and the Mayor of Moscow is getting more intense in Britain.
Ashok Kumar, MP is launching the "Defend Russian Hindus Campaign" at the House of Commons in January.
There was umbrage here when it was learnt that Archbishop Nikon wrote a letter to the Mayor of Moscow urging him not to allow the construction of a Hindu temple in Moscow because according to him, Lord Krishna who is worshipped by the Hindu community was an "evil demon".
"Such untenable words in an age where interfaith harmony is the need of the day are nothing but an attempt to malign and persecute a faith community that teaches respect and freedom for every other faith community, " commented Ramesh Kallidai, Secretary General Hindu Forum of Britain, an umbrella organisation of most community groups in Britain.
The Defend Russian Hindus Campaign, launched by the Hindu Forum of Britain, Hindu Council UK, National Council of Hindu Temples UK, International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Vishwa Hindu Parishad UK, Hindu Council of Australia, Hindu American Foundation and many other worldwide Hindu organisations, aims to build awareness about the alleged persecution and discrimination against Russian Hindus by a corpus of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Mayor of Moscow, despite support from the Central Government.
There are over 100,000 Hindus in Russia. In Moscow alone, there are 5,000 Hindus of Indian origin and over 10,000 Hindus of Russian origin.
Two years ago the Mayor of Russia asked Hindus to vacate their temple in exchange for a piece of land on which they could build a bigger temple. After land was allocated to the Hindu temple, the original temple was demolished. The Russian Orthodox Church orchestrated mass protests against the allocation of land and started a misinformation campaign against Hindus in the media.
On October 30, 2005, after bowing down to pressure from the Orthodox Church, the Mayor of Moscow cancelled the land order and took away the piece of land given for the construction of the Hindu temple. Now, the 15,000 Hindus in Moscow have no place to worship. The consecrated Deities of Radha and Krishna will have no home, say the Hindu leaders.
Kallidai said around the time of India Prime Minister's state visit to Moscow to meet Russian President Putin, Archbishop Nikon, a leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, called the Hindu God, Lord Krishna an "evil demon, the personified power of hell opposing God", and "a livid lascivious youth".
And many raised in Orthodox families have very little dedication to their faith and lack of basis for defense of it.
You're referring to Indians as being able to ban Russian churches as though it's Russians banning the Hindu temple. The Russian Orthodox ArchBishop is not a political office, and has zero affect on state decision making. The Russian ArchBishop has the right to vice the opinion of the church which is that pagan religions are false. Not everyone has adopted the 'beleive in something and you'll go to paradise' BS. But in Russia you're still free to voice that, unlike other countries where sayin such things is 'discrimination', and 'insultin interesting and exotic faiths'.
"Actually, I would respect that, if the Indians wish it..."
Most hindutva-spouting Indians want Christianity banned from India, missionaries booted out, and Chrisians/Muslims either convert back to Hinduism or leave the country.
Are you okay with that too?
"however, I am not certain, but I believe Christianity pre-dates Hinduism in India....."
LOL. So, Christianity existed 2000 years before christ? :D
As I said, I wasn't sure...and yes, if Hinduisim is there main religon, which it is, then they should have that right. But it should work BOTH ways!
My ancestors were from Williamson County, (right near you)
and La Grange. Neither owned slaves, both were cattle ranchers, and Texas Rangers. Both fought for the Confederacy. Do you seriously think that slavery was the reason most Texans fought? It wasn't. It was the principle that TEXANS and Southerners had the right to decide what goes on in their home. A basic right. The fact that slavery was one of those goals for some, doesn't detract from the principle here.
"Oh, and even if dalits become Christians, they call themselves 'dalit Christians'. Why do they do that?"
Oh thats simple. Who would like to give up on free lunch comming through affirmative action. The lower casts would like to integrate and would not like to be called "dalits" you would think. The reality is quite the opposite. Not being called a "dalit" will make them lose their special privilages comming through affirmative action. Moreover they can keep "castism" alive and can repeatedly shame India in the eyes of the world. Its all win win for them.
The "Dalits" now occupy most of the high political positions. Its the higher casts who are now the lower casts.
And the stat about "2 dalit women are raped daily" is plain bunch of bull. Fact is the US has far more rapes then India.
That would not necceasrily preclude that statistic.
Vedic Hinduism is as old as 10,000 BC. Hinduism is the worlds oldest surviving culture/religion/civilisation. It survived the ravages of time and will likely outlive almost all religion/culture that exist today.
Pardon me, what would not preclude what?
Even if there are more rapes per day in America than India it would not preclude that 2 dalit women are raped per day in india. It would simply necessitate that at least 731 women are raped per year in America.
"As I said, I wasn't sure...and yes, if Hinduisim is there main religon, which it is, then they should have that right. But it should work BOTH ways!"
India will and should remain secular, and I am saying this being a Hindu. We are and shall always be a secular democracy. But I fear most Christians here will demand India give them all the rights (which India already does) while they would want the same to be denied in case of Hindus in their countries which in other words is simply double standards. Christians here would be the first to come out with all the diatribe should India deny the Christians the right to built a Church in the middle of the city.
We aren't talking about a right to religion issue here.
We're talking about the right of a religious leader to make statements based on the religious views of his religion.
That is what has caused 'outrage'.
1. Do you have any evidence to prove 2 dalit women are raped in India everyday? This is the same kind of BS we get to hear in some of the Pakistani propagandist websites. Possibly even your info comes from ones of those websites.
2. How do you know they are Dalit? In most cases the identity of the victim isnt disclosed let alone disclosing her "cast".
3. If 2 Dalit women are raped in India every day that in itself will make India a country with the largest number rapes per year, which it isnt.
You theory on 2 dalit rapes per day does not hold much water as any Indian will tell you. And except for Pakistani or naxalite websites, no other websites will spout such crap about a country that has amongst the worlds lowest percentage of rape then most countries o the world. Your comment on 2 dalit rapes per day is not even worth a rebuttal.
"We aren't talking about a right to religion issue here.
We're talking about the right of a religious leader to make statements based on the religious views of his religion.
That is what has caused 'outrage'."
Well I care too little to be outraged over stupid comments the kind we get to hear all the time. I have heard far worse from men holding responsible public positions. My issue here is the reaction people here have shown to a minor issue about a demand for a temple.
I already posted links to the evidence which you simple dismissed as propaganda by dalits.
Further if it's not worth a rebuttle why have you done so several times?
Further still, it would amount to 730 rapes per year which is WELL BELOW INDIA'S RATE as indicated on charts you yourself have referenced.
(POORLY Translated by PROMPT)
The Destiny of the Moscow temple of Krishna will be solved by arbitration court
29.12.2005 17:06 | NEWSru.com
The History around of construction - and is more true, around of a cancelling mayor Luzhkov of own order about allocation of the ground under construction unique in Moscow of a temple of Krishna - now will receive new continuation.
On December, 28th Moscow vajshnavy (krishnaity) have addressed in Arbitration court of Moscow with the claim for protection of the right to have a temple.
" The appeal in arbitration court is our extreme measure to protect the rights of thousand believers, citizens of Russia ", - were declared by the president of the Moscow society of consciousness of Krishna (MOSK) Sergey Andreev. " We have agreeed on snos an old temple - which us, in general, quite arranged - only under guarantees of the government of Moscow, that to us will allow to construct a new building. It is very a pity, that the government does not carry out the obligations and, despite of our numerous requests, does not condescend to the decision them of the created problem ".
Since 1990 the Moscow temple of Krishna settled down in an emergency building on highway Horoshevskom which believers have restored own forces. In 2004 the Moscow authorities during reconstruction of area have taken down a temple, in exchange having allocated vajshnavam a site on the Leningrad prospectus for construction of a new temple, is spoken in the press release widespread by information service MOSK.
Since then believers have lead one and a half year in building change houses without heating, water supply and the water drain. They not only have received necessary coordination for this time for the beginning constructions, but also have managed in " field conditions " to support activity of a temple which is visited daily with hundreds, and on holidays - up to 7 thousand Russians and indijtsev. All these months followers of Krishna waited for the final sanction of the mayoralty to construction of a temple. However on October, 7th s.g. The government of Moscow has suddenly decided to withdraw a site. At the height of winter of thousand believers have appeared practically in snowdrifts.
Probably, the acuteness of this problem would be more clear to authorities if they had to lead two winters in metal containers with a biotoilet in the street. Krishnaitam it is necessary to hope for the fair decision of court only.
The main problem that the situation has developed obviously not in favour of the Russian-Indian friendship. About morbidity from which our Indian friends react to infringement of the rights induistov in Russia, it is possible to judge under publications in the Indian press in reply to recent sharp applications of the orthodox hierarch of archbishop Nikona. How much this all will be coordinated with a rate of the federal government of Russia, it is necessary to guess only, concludes the press release information service MOSK.
"I already posted links to the evidence which you simple dismissed as propaganda by dalits."
"Dalitstan" is not even Dalit, its Pakistani and Naxalite. No Dalit would ever give out that kind of anit-India lies.
"Further if it's not worth a rebuttle why have you done so several times? "
So that the gullible do not accept it as the truth. You need to trust the Pakistani sources less and Indian sources more.
I posted the soruces I found, further since you've denied there's at least 730 rapes in india per year I find you're speculation without sources questionable itself.
The fundamental problem is that there ARE dalits, and that there IS a caste system that allows them no upward mobilitiy; which is how the argument got started in the first place.
"I posted the soruces I found"
Which isnt good enough. You even hadn't any idea about the authenticity or origin of the source. The internet is a place where you can find whatever tripe you want to propagate. You picked up those articles because it was there for you and it endorsed whatever theory you want to advance.
"The fundamental problem is that there ARE dalits, and that there IS a caste system that allows them no upward mobilitiy; which is how the argument got started in the first place."
There sure are 'Dalits' but only because they wish to continue calling themselves as such for reasons I have already stated. It doesnt hold them them from upward mobility or else our last President K. R. Narayanan wont have been a "Dalit". (I am still waiting for a non White male President of US). Also our the majority inside our Parliament wont have been "Dalits". Believe me it better to be a "Dalit" in India today. And I dont have to hide behind some dubious article on the net to make my claims. I live in India and I know first hand. If you have doubts then I suggest you come to India and find out for yourself.
"I found, further since you've denied there's at least 730 rapes in india per year "
I asked how do you know they are "Dalits", a victims "cast" is the last thing that will be disclosed. (And the same for the rapist). Cast is rarely mentioned in Indian press.
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