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To: johnnyb_61820; b_sharp
You're missing the point. If co-evolution is happening within a hundred years, it must be Lamarckian, because otherwise the "random mutation" part would not have time to catch up.

You don't usually need to wait on random mutation. Most populations maintain a significant amount of variation at any one time, and thus can respond, often on time scales of a few years or less, to sufficiently extreme selective pressures. See, for instance, the book The Beak of the Finch which discusses documented, and nearly instantaneous, selective responses to droughts in the Galapagos Islands. (I.e. the results of the droughts were such that the sizes and natures of seeds available to the birds shifted significantly, and so did the average beak sizes. There was already a range of available beak sizes in the population, so differential survival rapidly shifted the average or typical beak size.)

941 posted on 12/30/2005 7:41:52 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Stultis
You don't usually need to wait on random mutation. Most populations maintain a significant amount of variation at any one time, and thus can respond, often on time scales of a few years or less, to sufficiently extreme selective pressures.

Some populations more than others. DNA studies indicate that dog breeds are less than 300-400 years old. If all you had of dogs were multi-million year old fossils, you would be amazed at the rapid "evolution" of dogs. Quite enough to be labeled separate species.

Suppose all you had were fossils of wolf and Chihuahua. There would be a huge gap in a geologic eyeblink.

945 posted on 12/30/2005 8:13:43 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Stultis
(I.e. the results of the droughts were such that the sizes and natures of seeds available to the birds shifted significantly, and so did the average beak sizes. There was already a range of available beak sizes in the population, so differential survival rapidly shifted the average or typical beak size.)

Big deal... NOT! This ain't "Evolution", so quit trying to use it as such.


Go here for the same kinda stuff. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/predation/predation.html
1,026 posted on 12/31/2005 5:23:25 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Stultis; johnnyb_61820; b_sharp

Oops!

I left you guys out of the above


1,027 posted on 12/31/2005 5:24:08 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Stultis

"You don't usually need to wait on random mutation. Most populations maintain a significant amount of variation at any one time, and thus can respond, often on time scales of a few years or less, to sufficiently extreme selective pressures."

Having less amount of variation in the population is the _opposite_ of evolution. In addition, what evidence is there that the variation is the result of random mutation? This is assuming the conclusion.

In addition, are you sure that in the example you give, there is positive evidence of either random mutationor of selection being the reason for the variation? I've read lots of papers that simply use "selection" for any of a range of phenomena, some quite distant from the ideas that Darwin put forth as "natural selection" (i.e. differential survival and differential reproductive ability).


1,122 posted on 12/31/2005 1:28:17 PM PST by johnnyb_61820
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