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To: tortoise
" Where did the dust come from if there are no stars?"

"Dust" comes before stars in the cosmic scheme of things, and exists without stars, though the dust may be little more than dark matter. Stars are borne from dust.

"Stars are born within cocoons of dust and dense molecular gas, and are mostly hidden from view at visible wavelengths." -- NASA

"Interspersed between stars is a tenuous interstellar medium (ISM) comprised of dust grains and atomic and molecular gas. " -- NASA

Your are out of your "element". (pardon the pun)

"Incidentally, all you've asserted here is conditions that alter computation rates and probability distributions, but does not eliminate them. You said "impossible", not "improbable". Try again.""

No. I've explained to you that minor deviations in basic cosmological constants change the probability of elemental life (composed of atoms) to zero. No bell curve here.

We can say with certainty that no life exists within the nuclear furnace of the sun, because no long chain molecules of any sort could exist for more than nanoseconds before beuing burst asunder. Thus no life would exist in the similar environment of the furnace of cosmological plasma that would comprise the entire universe if some of those numbers were varied in the slightest.

No life could exist if the only element that existed was hydrogen! You obviously did not read any of my post.

However, any possibility of extra-dimensional non-elemental "spirit-like life" exists only because God exists in spirit and with Him all things are possible. However, God would not and did not create life without first creating the stable conditions to sustain life. That is why He created the world we now live in.

No scientist takes your position. Scientists are now looking for reasons why these constants exist the way they do because they cannot conceive of random processes in a singular universe coming to rest with these values.

I am informing you of the status of cosmological science. I am not debating you. You have offered no counter-points to uphold your assertions and establish a debate. Gain-saying is not debate.

"The rest went right over your head. My assertion was not idle speculation, it is a cornerstone theorem in mathematics."

Really? Perhaps you'd better explain. To what cornerstone of mathematics are you inferring? If you wish to debate you must make your assertions, not simply say "it cannot be".

For instance, I assert that life cannot exist if the only element in the universe is hydrogen. Your counterpoint must assert that life can exist with hydrogen only and explain why?

Do you wish to make such an assertion?

Do you wish to assert that life can exist in a nuclear furnace in which no atoms exists (not even stable hydrogen)?

749 posted on 12/29/2005 8:41:10 PM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Mark Felton
I've explained to you that minor deviations in basic cosmological constants change the probability of elemental life (composed of atoms) to zero.

What is so special about atoms? Living critters are perfectly reducible to complex algorithmic systems that can be perfectly reproduced in any Turing Complete system. Which would include the majority of very bizarre universes, including many that have no atoms. In fact, existence in the alternative universe would be appear to be identical as long as the algorithms were perfectly reproduced. (Shades of the Simulation Argument, etc)

You are trying to build an airplane by making an exact copy of birds -- because you have seen them fly -- and are ignoring that they are but a tiny subset of the plausible phase space for a vehicle that flies. Humans are not atoms, though that is the substrate we occupy, we are very complex algorithmic patterns at the highest level of detail.

The Invariance Theorem proves that all systems that contain the same algorithmic information are equivalent, and it is well-established that it is a lot harder to make a universe that is not Turing complete, no matter how bizarre, than one that is. The equivalence of such universes from an algorithmic information theory perspective is old school. In short, all your bizarre parameterizations must allow the expression of life as we know it, complements of the Invariance Theorem. Whether or not there are "atoms" is completely irrelevant -- any decent replacement substrate will work just as well and we would never know the difference if we were transplanted into it.

759 posted on 12/29/2005 10:45:38 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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