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To: Mark Felton
I've explained to you that minor deviations in basic cosmological constants change the probability of elemental life (composed of atoms) to zero.

What is so special about atoms? Living critters are perfectly reducible to complex algorithmic systems that can be perfectly reproduced in any Turing Complete system. Which would include the majority of very bizarre universes, including many that have no atoms. In fact, existence in the alternative universe would be appear to be identical as long as the algorithms were perfectly reproduced. (Shades of the Simulation Argument, etc)

You are trying to build an airplane by making an exact copy of birds -- because you have seen them fly -- and are ignoring that they are but a tiny subset of the plausible phase space for a vehicle that flies. Humans are not atoms, though that is the substrate we occupy, we are very complex algorithmic patterns at the highest level of detail.

The Invariance Theorem proves that all systems that contain the same algorithmic information are equivalent, and it is well-established that it is a lot harder to make a universe that is not Turing complete, no matter how bizarre, than one that is. The equivalence of such universes from an algorithmic information theory perspective is old school. In short, all your bizarre parameterizations must allow the expression of life as we know it, complements of the Invariance Theorem. Whether or not there are "atoms" is completely irrelevant -- any decent replacement substrate will work just as well and we would never know the difference if we were transplanted into it.

759 posted on 12/29/2005 10:45:38 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: tortoise
complements of the Invariance Theorem

Guh. That would be "compliments".

762 posted on 12/29/2005 11:02:01 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: tortoise
What is so special about atoms?"

They are stable and form stable structures in space/time. Thus they are able to carry and retain information. Thus their domain can be "Turing Complete". They can deliver information to a reciever with some finite probability of reliability (information is sufficiently constitent as to be recognizable for some period of time, however small)

The problem between our current universe and the other disordered universes or homogenous/invariant universes, that arise from slight variations of the 6 fundamental cosmological constants, is that of information loss or lack of informational states.

I am talking about going from a universe with our current entropy to a universe that has no ability to hold information of any sort in space or time, other than the information of 1, that they exist.

An algorithm, or life, requires that at least a stable set of instructions may exist. There is no repeatability in the disordered universes. There is no ability to retain information, of any sort.

The homogenous and invariant universes are non-chaotic but have the opposite problem. They are universally homogenous with respect to matter and temperature. There is no energy flow from one point in space to another, thus there is nothing to be used to create or hold information. This is like making a computer (Turing machine) from a vacuum, empty space, or alternately making a computer from a homogeneous mass of hydrogen of uniform density.

There is no information because there are no predictable variations in any state in any volume no matter how small or how large. [Note: It is a criteria that life must spontaneously evolve from such homo

Life requires information to describe itself, and it requires such information be stable for a sufficient period of time that it be able to reproduce itself, or a similar facsimile. Further it functions by responding to external information (inputs) and modifying/producing such nformation (outputs).

In the disordered universes this cannot happen. Those universes are completely turbulent, and chaotic. There are no continuous, linear, differentiable surfaces or volumes.

In all volumes, no matter how small (as delta v tends to 0) information is not retained for any period of time (as delta t tends to 0).

Furthermore, for instance, take a black hole as one example of a state for a universe (1 large blak hole, nothing more) any information that is input into this universe from another universe, say, is destroyed. "Beam" a quantum system into this universe (described by eigenvalues and coefficients) and the information are converted to a singular thermal state (it is converted from wave function to a density matrix), which is even then rapidly lost as it is dispersed thoughout the universe from it's original input space. Thus a complex piece of information is reduced to a singular value of heat, and then dispersed spatially and even that single piece of information is lost. The process cannot be reversed and the information regained.

The only possibility for life is that the disordered universe (or homogeneous) include additional stable dimensions. Remember that D, dimensionality, was one of those 6 cosmological constants.

Life requires information stability of some degree, or requires that a number of different information states be possible. The disordered universes have no such stability and the homogeneous universes have no such variation of states. There is no possible "algorithms" that could exist, since information cannot be retained in any volume or time of the other universes.

803 posted on 12/30/2005 7:22:39 AM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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