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[Jeb] Bush: Science comes before intelligent design [Jeb gets the message]
Miami Herald ^ | 26 December 2005 | Daniel A. Ricker

Posted on 12/26/2005 8:37:06 AM PST by PatrickHenry

Questioned about the national debate over ''intelligent design,'' [Florida] Gov. Jeb Bush last week said he's more interested in seeing some evolution of the science standards that Florida public school students must meet.

He wants those standards to become more rigorous -- and raising the standards should take priority over discussing whether intelligent design has a place in the public schools' curriculum, he said.

Nationally, the discussion over whether to teach intelligent design -- a concept that says life is too complex to have occurred without the involvement of a higher force -- in public school classes heated up after U.S. District Judge John E. Jones ruled that it smacked of creationism and was a violation of church and state separation. (President Bush appointed Jones to the federal bench in 2004.)

Jones, in his decision, wrote that the concept of intelligent design ''cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents,'' according to a Knight Ridder News Service report published Wednesday in The Miami Herald. [PH here: For a more reliable source than the Herald, here's the judge's opinion (big pdf file).]

In Florida, education officials and science teachers will be reviewing the state's science curriculum in 2007 or 2008, after the governor has left office, and ''it is possible that people would make an effort to include [intelligent design] in the debate,'' Gov. Bush told The Watchdog Report on Wednesday. ''My personal belief is we ought to look at whether our standards are high first,'' he said.

SCIENCE FIRST

``The more important point is science itself and how important it is, and we right now have adequate standards that may need to be raised. But worse: Students are not given the course work necessary to do well with those standards.''

Bush, after meeting with Coral Gables Mayor Don Slesnick and city commissioners concerning the community's widespread power outages after hurricanes Katrina and Wilma, also noted that the federal ruling came in a case that involves Pennsylvania's Dover Area School District.

''It is one school district in Pennsylvania,'' he said.

POINT OF VIEW

The Watchdog Report asked a follow-up question: Does the governor believe in Darwin's theory of evolution?

Bush said: ``Yeah, but I don't think it should actually be part of the curriculum, to be honest with you. And people have different points of view and they can be discussed at school, but it does not need to be in the curriculum.''


"The Watchdog Report" mentioned in the article is Ricker's own newsletter. He's the author of the article. Apparently the interview with Jeb was deemed important enough that the Miami Herald agreed to run it.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: crevolist; doubletalk; jebbush; scienceeducation
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To: Matchett-PI
"..I'll take my chances with the mind of Vade."

Of course. You have no other choice.

161 posted on 12/26/2005 1:59:35 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: b_sharp
This got buried in my reply queue by a storm of creo BS. Yes, you got it.
162 posted on 12/26/2005 2:02:39 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Virginia-American; darkocean

Now both of us have explained this. Odds?


163 posted on 12/26/2005 2:03:50 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: VadeRetro

I was buried amongst a pile of creos? Aaarrrggghhhh!


164 posted on 12/26/2005 2:05:17 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: darkocean

The normal English term for 'mutation' is 'birth defect'.

'Genius' is also a term sometimes applied.

165 posted on 12/26/2005 2:07:37 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: RadioAstronomer

"I don't agree. Genesis does not match the observed evidence."

You have not yet observed enough. Keep watching. Psalm 19:1-5. Perhaps someone has lied to you about what you were observing.


166 posted on 12/26/2005 2:07:53 PM PST by Free Baptist
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To: Matchett-PI

I had 16 years of education in private schools run by Christian denominations, including upper division classes in biblical history and theology.

I don't know how many more years of such education you've had in order to judge me as a biblical illiterate. It must be a lot.


167 posted on 12/26/2005 2:08:51 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: jwalsh07
Now it's bad enough that Judge Jones has found the free exercise clause unconstitutional because it stifles critical thinking...

Jones is merely quoting from, and basing his opinion on Freiler in the section you cite. Insofar as Freiler was denied cert a mere four years ago, I do not think that Jones is overly presumptuous in considering Freiler to be reflective of the status quo. That being said, Judge Jones is not empowered to overturn the Fifth Circuit, nor is he empowered to visit (or revisit) cases in lieu of SCOTUS.

Your ire is a bit misplaced, my friend - Jones followed the law as it exists for the moment. He did nothing wrong in looking to Freiler to guide his decision - to do otherwise would have made him precisely the sort of lone-wolf activist we rightly decry. We may, of course, object to Freiler in and of itself, but it is not a decision Jones is empowered to make.

168 posted on 12/26/2005 2:09:04 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: toadthesecond

Genesis ch. 9 also included.


169 posted on 12/26/2005 2:09:08 PM PST by Free Baptist
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To: VadeRetro

"Jeb doesn't fully appreciate that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"

I hope you live long enough to see evolution fall on its face just like Freudism and Marxism already have. I have yet to see any evidence of inter-species evolution (rats becoming sheep, etc.) although there appears to be some evidence of intra-species evolution (birds developing longer beaks for eating termites, etc.). I believe Darwin only spoke about intra-species evolution. Thus to me biology makes perfect sense in the light of ID.


170 posted on 12/26/2005 2:10:12 PM PST by razzle
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To: b_sharp
Again, kiddies, that was b_sharp with the correct answer. Nothing In Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution." Theodosius Dobzhansky (1973).
171 posted on 12/26/2005 2:13:04 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Free Baptist

You have not yet observed enough. Keep watching. Psalm 19:1-5. Perhaps someone has lied to you about what you were observing.

What's the point in wasting time observing if Psalm 19:1-5 already has all the answers?

172 posted on 12/26/2005 2:13:39 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: wyattearp
You are requiring God's Holy Spirit to use words of classification and description approved by human scientists. You would seat yourself above God. You are going to be surprised at the sentence against such arrogance one day. God prepared a great fish in Jonah ch. 2, and our Lord Jesus called it a whale. You will say that the Bible is a mess for calling a whale a fish when it is, by humanly written textbooks, a mammal. We know how to distinguish between these things when reading humanly written textbooks. That does not change the fact that God has the prerogative to call a butterfly an elephant if He were to so desire. It changes nothing--it only tests you, to see whether you will let God be God, or whether you will continue to consider yourself smarter than Him.
173 posted on 12/26/2005 2:17:12 PM PST by Free Baptist
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To: razzle
I have yet to see any evidence of inter-species evolution (rats becoming sheep, etc.) although there appears to be some evidence of intra-species evolution (birds developing longer beaks for eating termites, etc.).

29+ Independent Lines of Evidence for Macroevolution.

What lack of transitionals?

174 posted on 12/26/2005 2:18:32 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: ml1954

What's the point in wasting time observing if Psalm 19:1-5 already has all the answers?

The point is, you desire the glory for yourself and not for God, and so you will not believe His Word.


175 posted on 12/26/2005 2:19:37 PM PST by Free Baptist
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To: razzle
BTW, you'll note Dobzhansky's article was written in 1973, which is getting to be a long time ago. The picture which was the only one then making sense has been greatly strengthened by the addition of newer evidence. It's hard to see how it could ever fall completely on its face at this point given the crushing preponderance of evidence we have now.
176 posted on 12/26/2005 2:23:50 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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Comment #177 Removed by Moderator

To: Ichneumon

You claim more knowledge than God. You will see some science at the Second Coming of Christ that would make you burn your entire library of scientific texts, and fall on your knees and beg for mercy.


178 posted on 12/26/2005 2:28:41 PM PST by Free Baptist
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To: b_sharp
"What is it about something being either Contingent, Complex or Specified that is nebulous to you?

The inconsistent definitions in Dembski's literature and the lack of rational in the default of design. The lack of real world application, and its high potential for false positives make it questionable in use.

Inconsistant?? How? What example are you giving here? If he is lacking rational you are not convincing me of it just because you say so. That lacks rational in and of itself. What makes you opinion more valid here? Its a valid question to ask yourself as neither you, or Dembski or I are the universal standard.

179 posted on 12/26/2005 2:29:34 PM PST by ICE-FLYER (God bless and keep the United States of America)
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To: Free Baptist

ml1954: What's the point in wasting time observing if Psalm 19:1-5 already has all the answers?

Free Baptist: The point is, you desire the glory for yourself and not for God, and so you will not believe His Word.

You assume preconception. And that doesn't answer the question.

180 posted on 12/26/2005 2:33:31 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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