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To: Mark Felton; RadioAstronomer

Your comparison of Big Bang cosmology and ID is faulty. BBC won out over the Steady State theory because the SST couldn't explain the microwave background radiation. IE the theory fits the data better than other theories and it accounts for the observations.

There are potential observations that would show BB to be false - eg, finding **very** distant galaxies (say 100 billion light years distant), or finding that the spectra of distant galaxies is just like that of modern ones, with the same proportion of heavy elements (because the theory is that these are from supernovas, and there wouldn't have been time for many of those in very early galaxies) IE, the theory is falsifiable.

The problem with ID that I was addressing is its vacuity. It does not, in any except the trivial "that's how the designer did it" way, explain the distribution of genetic markers across different species, like the example I frequently use of cows, hippos, and whales. In fact it explains nothing.

And even more damningly, it cannot be falsified; there is no possible observation that is inconsistent with "that's how the designer did it", unless you can somehow put limitations on the designer's abilities or desires or whatever. This hasn't been done; if the designer is God, it can't be done.

Global warming is **much** more speculative than either BB or ToE. There is some evidence that warming is occuring, but whether, or to what degree, it is manmade is very unclear. However, there really are "greenhouse gases", so it's not complete cr@p, but it obviously is very politicized by the usual suspects.

RA, I pinged you on this because I pretty much exhausted my knowledge of BB's status as a theory

Merry Christmas to all!


200 posted on 12/24/2005 12:54:53 AM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Virginia-American
And even more damningly, it cannot be falsified; there is no possible observation that is inconsistent with "that's how the designer did it" . . .

Why is such an assertion "damning?" It seems to me you are taking one small aspect of science, namely falsifiability, and stretching it is if it applies to the general principles under which any sentient being would undertake to understand the universe. An assertion just as "damning" is saying "that's how evolution did it." Truth is, neither assertion is particularly "damning." They just happen to be different ways of looking at the universe, and they both work quite well. They can even be combined.

205 posted on 12/24/2005 6:26:18 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Virginia-American
"Your comparison of Big Bang cosmology and ID is faulty. BBC won out over the Steady State theory because the SST couldn't explain the microwave background radiation. IE the theory fits the data better than other theories and it accounts for the observations."

Actually SST could not explain the expansion of the universe. It could not explain galaxies spreading outward from some origin. Microwave background radiation was discovered later in 1965 after the Big Bang theories had already been postulated.

The MBR supports a big bang. It supports the Biblical idea that there was a "beginning".

Since the atheists didn't like that concept of a singular Divine event they postulated that the universe continuously experienced big bangs as part of a cycle of expansion-contraction-bang-expansion-contraction-bang...etc etc

The bad news occurred in 1998. The galaxies were not slowing down, as required for contraction to someday occur. They were accelerating away with no possibility of contraction ever occuring by current theories. bummer.

They couldn't explain it. The new theories now require the presence of dark matter (undetected) to be pulling the galaxies away at ever increasing speeds. It requires that approximately 98% of all matter in the universe be dark matter. Our known observable universe would comprise only 2% of all matter.

I think the answers will be found when we better begin understanding the effects of the other 6 dimensions upon our current 4 observable dimensions.

272 posted on 12/26/2005 1:02:20 PM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Virginia-American; b359
"And even more damningly, it cannot be falsified; there is no possible observation that is inconsistent with "that's how the designer did it", unless you can somehow put limitations on the designer's abilities or desires or whatever. This hasn't been done; if the designer is God, it can't be done."

God does not compete with science. Science explains God's universe in ways that we humans can comprehend. Simply saying God was behind the creation does not mean that we shut down science and say "nevermind". Quite the reverse is true.

God tells us to pursue science. He tells us, in scripture, to pursue knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

God has already proven His existence. Those who deny God exists are simply blind and willfully in denial. They are fearful. It is frightening to think that we will be judged for our actions. But God forgives those who love Him and offer a contrite heart.

The proof of God is available to everyone. They need only accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour and they will soon experience the gift of the Holy Spirit within their soul.

Science cannot prove love exists either. Imagine that. The most powerful, positive force in human society cannot be proven by science. Yet we know love exists because of our personal experience and because we witness the loving actions of those in love.

The same is true with God and Jesus Christ. We know they exist because of our personal experience and because we witness the loving actions and self-sacrifice of those who are truly righteous (and don't simply use the power of Christ for their own aggrandizement).

After 25 years as a deist in R&D I discovered that my worldview and philosophy of life became complete only after I discovered the truth of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. As incredible as it seems Christ was proven to me without any shadow of doubt. All my senses and sensibilites affirmed His truth more completely than any scientifi proof I have ever read.

There are no scientific sensors to measure the spirit, except our own senses designed by God to be able to connect with God.

273 posted on 12/26/2005 1:21:52 PM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Virginia-American; b359
"The problem with ID that I was addressing is its vacuity. It does not, in any except the trivial "that's how the designer did it" way, explain the distribution of genetic markers across different species, like the example I frequently use of cows, hippos, and whales. In fact it explains nothing."

Jesus states that "God is a spirit". The Bible states that God made man in His image. That does not mean that God made man to look like God but that man did not exist until God imparted His spirit within a natural, "earthy" being.

I believe that only recently (last 10,000 years) did God select a species to make in His image, to impart His spirit within it. I believe He chose a hominid and gave him a soul and an ability to become a vessel for the Holy Spirit. At that time that hominid became a true, modern, spiritual "man".

No human civilization existed before that. Only the most primitive societies existed prior to that with no more social, intellectual, spiritual sophistication than any group of modern primates.

At that time man became spiritual and began to grow.

It explains why one particular primate very suddenly began a new fantastic, spiritual and intellectual development. It explains why only 1 species of millions became as advanced as men.

It explains much. It is also the way an Intelligent Designer may have chosen the best of a number of species to impart such unique abilities and make that 1 species the shephard over all others.

"The body ... is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord (Jesus) from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[d] the image of the heavenly Man." -- 1 corinthians 15:42-49

Without spirituality men would be mere apes. Mere dust, fleshly products of the earth.

The atheists who deny the spirtuality of men are mere fools and have shut down their own spiritual senses.

" But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- 1 cor 2:14

Evolution has major limitations. It does not explain the creation of life, nor does it explain how when all species have so much in common yet only one species became man, with such overwhelming power and unique capabilities, intellect and spirituality.

Since evolution favors the strong there should be dozens, perhaps hundreds of species very close in capabilities to that of men. Dolphins should be building underwater hospitals, gorillas should be building temples and worshipping primitive gods, cows should be planting crops, and all these creatures should be building tools to overcome their own physical limitations.

Yet men, are singular. They have broken away from the limits of natural evolution because God has endowed them with His spirit. Evolution cannot explain the uniqueness of the success of man.

" No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." -- 1 John 4:12-16

275 posted on 12/26/2005 1:59:39 PM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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