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To: Cicero
And at the time it was written, established meant exactly that--that there should be no official, established national church like the Church of England.

Actually, no, it did not. Not in the American context. In fact I don't think there was a single state at the time the Constitution was adopted that had a single establishment, i.e. establishing one and only one church or denomination. They all had either multiple or general establishments. That is either more than one church was recognized as official or received direct government aid (multiple establishment), or there was some scheme along the lines of a religion tax which might be mandatory, but the person paying the tax could determine the church that received it (general establishment).

Single establishments were not the norm even during most of the Colonial era. Even where they existed pro-forma they were soon "multiplized" or generalized de-facto.

Besides, if congress had meant what you say they meant, why didn't they just say so? Why didn't the use the term "national religion" instead of the naked and general term "religion"? The "national religion" language was considered and was rejected. They specifically chose the most general language possible.

69 posted on 12/21/2005 4:26:50 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Stultis

The key word is "establishment." It has a very definite meaning in English and in England.

The constitution doesn't say anything one way or the other about state establishment of religion. It just says there shall be no establishment of religion on the national level.

In the seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries, nearly every European country had an established Church. In England it was the Church of England. In France it was the Catholic Church. There was no Germany, but the various German states all had established religions.

There might be various degrees of tolerance of other religions. In England, even fairly recently, it was customary usage to speak of "church" and "chapel." A stranger might be asked, "Are you church or chapel?" Anglicans have churches, Methodists and others have chapels. Catholics not mentioned in polite society.


71 posted on 12/21/2005 4:42:07 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Stultis
The Tenth Amendment reserves to the states those powers not delegated to the federal government. Since no power of establishment was granted to the federal government, it then rests with the states.

Why didn't the use the term "national religion" instead of the naked and general term "religion"?

Because that might give someone the idea that we had a National centralized government rather than a federation of states.

Representative Benjamin Huntington then expressed the view that the Committee's language might "be taken in such latitude as to be extremely hurtful to the cause of religion. He understood the amendment to mean what had been expressed by the gentleman from Virginia; but others might find it convenient to put another construction upon it." Huntington, from Connecticut, was concerned that in the New England States, where state-established religions were the rule rather than the exception, the federal courts might not be able to entertain claims based upon an obligation under the bylaws of a religious organization to contribute to the support of a minister or the building of a place of worship. He hoped that "the amendment would be made in such a way as to secure the rights of conscience, and a free exercise of the rights of religion, but not to patronize those who professed no religion at all." Id., at 730-731.

Madison responded that the insertion of the word "national" before the word "religion" in the Committee version should satisfy the minds of those who had criticized the language. "He believed that the people feared one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform. He thought that if the word 'national' was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent." Id., at 731. Representative Samuel Livermore expressed himself as dissatisfied with Madison's proposed amendment, and thought it would be better if the Committee language were altered to read that "Congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience." Ibid.

Representative Gerry spoke in opposition to the use of the word "national" because of strong feelings expressed during the ratification debates that a federal government, not a national government, was created by the Constitution. Madison thereby withdrew his proposal but insisted that his reference to a "national religion" only referred to a national establishment and did not mean that the Government was a national one. - Justice Rehnquist's Dissent in WALLACE V. JAFFREE (1985)


96 posted on 12/21/2005 6:41:09 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Stultis

Shortly before the outbreak of the Revolutionary War, an evangelical Baptist preacher named "Swearing Jack" Waller attempted to lead a prayer meeting without a license from the colonial government of Virginia. Because he was violating Virginia's religion laws, "Swearing Jack" was jerked off his platform by sheriff's men who proceeded to beat his head against the ground. The sheriff then lashed him 20 times with a horsewhip.

At this time, the Church of England (also known as the Anglican Church) was the established religion of Virginia. This meant that the Anglican Church was the only officially recognized church in the colony. Virginia taxpayers supported this church through a religion tax. Only Anglican clergymen could lawfully conduct marriages. Non-Anglicans had to get permission (a license) from the colonial government to preach.

Although the Anglican Church was the sole established church in all five Southern colonies, other protestant Christian churches became established in the towns of the Northern colonies of New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire. Each town chose by majority vote one Protestant church to be supported by taxpayers. In these colonies, one church usually predominated. For example, in Massachusetts almost all towns selected the Congregational Church since the majority of people living in the colony belonged to that faith.

Thus, on the eve of the Revolutionary War, nine of the 13 colonies supported official religions with public taxes. Moreover, in these colonies, the government dictated "correct" religious belief and methods of worship. Religious dissenters, like "Swearing Jack," were discriminated against, disqualified from holding public office, exiled, fined, jailed, beaten, mutilated, and sometimes even executed. Only Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware did not have a system linking church and state. After the Revolution, leaders like Jefferson and Madison worked to ensure freedom of religion for all citizens of the new nation.


102 posted on 12/21/2005 7:18:13 PM PST by EBH (Never give-up, Never give-in, and Never Forget)
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To: Stultis

Minor quibble: Congress didn't write the Constitution.


123 posted on 12/22/2005 6:24:56 AM PST by brothers4thID ("Kerry demands that Iraqis terrorize children in the dead of night")
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