Mark Steyn: O come, all ye faithless

The Spectator (U.K.) ^ | 12/17/05 | Mark Steyn

[denydenydeny]

Possibly the best Steyn ever, and that is saying something.

[Slings and Arrows]

A similar situation is found in Exodus when the escaping Israelites are crossing the Red Sea. When G-d lets the waters of the sea return and drown the pursuing Egyptian army, some of the angels began to cheer. G-d says to them "My creations are dying, why are you laughing?"

[cornelis]

See # 12

[HOTTIEBOY]

I can relate to what you are saying as far as the words do make sense to me. Belief in a higher power IS a binding force for advanced cultures.
I look at things from a scientific point of view. I don't need religion. I realize the impact that religion has had on humanity. Every religion is different and no one from one particular religion can claim that their religion is better than another person's religion.
The reason they are all so different is because they remain in the secular group and over centuries are changed and twisted until they are seen as radical or blasphemous when viewed from a different culture. Saying that you believe in a certain religion only tells which secular group influenced you the most.
I do not believe any religion but I do not hate any either. If religion binds a culture and shapes that society, then so be it.

[ichabod1]

In the same way, assume that there was no baby in the manger, no virgin birth, no resurrection. A rationalist ought still to be able to conclude that, as a societal model, Christianity is more rational than Eutopian secularism.

An excellent distillation of what C.S. Lewis spent so much time teaching us after he left the childish world of Narnia behind, and allowed himself to be captured by Jesus Christ.

[orionblamblam]

> "My creations are dying, why are you laughing?"

Well, it's not like they hadn't seen this sort of thing out of their boss before.

[HOTTIEBOY]

"Good for you, but that doesn't make Steyn wrong."

You are right. It absolutely does not. Nobody is right or wrong on this subject. I may THINK you are wrong and you may THINK I am wrong but that is what religion is all about. Beliefs and faiths. Not fact.

[cornelis]

Pacificism is a heresy.

[SoothingDave]

I look at things from a scientific point of view. I don't need religion. I realize the impact that religion has had on humanity.

Isn't it rational, looking at the difference between religous and athiestic cultures, to draw the conclusion Steyn does? That fear of a divine judgment serves as a brake on what would otherwise be selfish behavior? If the here and now is all there is, would people (in general) behave more like angels or devils?

SD

[CarolinaGuitarman]

Is there a reason I was pinged to this?

[ichabod1]

General compassion for my fellow man makes you live after death in the legacy you leave behind.

So that's your choice. But if you are an atheist, there are no grounding principles that require you to live that way. You could decide that societal laws are not for such a one as you and scoff at them as you please. Or that rape is ok if you don't get caught, or robbery or murder for that matter.

Atheists have "no controlling legal authority".

[cornelis]

You bet.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

I am sure you will tell me then.

[betty boop]

...hyper-rationalist radical secularism reduces the world to one’s own life span. Why try to ‘settle disputes’ when you’ll be long gone? Faith is one of those mystic cords that binds us to our past and commits us to a future.

And NOT just commitment to an "otherwordly" or heavenly future: but to the future of the human race in this world, which we have in and through our children.

It seems not a few left progressives have problems with narcissism and solipsistic thinking.... It's all about "me, me, me!!!" You can't build a civil society out of garbage like that. FWIW

Thanks for the ping to Steyn's outstanding article bondserv. He's one of my favorite writers.

[cornelis]

So you could think about reply #12.

[Servant of the 9]

For a big-ideas guy, Watson is missing the bigger question: something has to be ‘responsible for most of the wars and bigotry’, and if it wasn’t religion, it would surely be something else. In fact, in the 20th century, it was. Europe’s post-Christian pathogens of communism and Nazism unleashed horrors on a scale inconceivable even to the most ambitious Pope.

Mere copycats.
Monotheism was the wellspring of genocide and hate thy neighbor for what he thinks.
Before monotheism, man attacked man in self defense or to gain resources, not from pure spite hatred and bloodymindedness.

SO9

[CarolinaGuitarman]

Thought about it. So what?

[SoothingDave]

‘Okay,’ wrote Engel, ‘let’s imagine that; let’s imagine six billion people who believe that flesh and blood is all there is; that once you shuffle off this mortal coil, poof, you’re history; that Hitler and Mother Teresa, for example, both met the same ultimate fate. Common sense suggests that such a world would produce a lot more Hitlers and a lot fewer Teresas, for the same reason that you get a lot more speeders/murderers/rapists/ embezzlers when you eliminate laws, police and punishment.

You are right. It absolutely does not. Nobody is right or wrong on this subject. I may THINK you are wrong and you may THINK I am wrong but that is what religion is all about. Beliefs and faiths. Not fact.

This statement of Steyn's, reporduced above, is not "religion." At least not the way I think of it. It seems to me a rational conclusion, "common sense" as he puts it.

Do religious people defer gratification for promises of reward in the afterlife? Do they teach that there is more to life than material possessions and obtaining power, glory, bounty, etc. for oneself? Does it not follow that if everyone gave up these religous beliefs for a "get it now, you'll be dead soon" philosophy, we would breed more cutthroat, "evil" people? More Hitlers?

SD

[Mr. Jeeves]

‘Without question, ethical monotheism. The idea of one true god. The idea that our life and ethical conduct on Earth determines how we will go into the next world. This has been responsible for most of the wars and bigotry in history.’

Though I am as skeptical of religious fervor as any other Deist/Objectivist, Watson misses the mark completely here. The wars and bigotry stem from the belief that one's own particular variant of ethical monotheism is the One True Way, and that all who oppose you are heretics and deserve to be put to the sword. "The idea that our life and ethical conduct on Earth determines how we will go into the next world" serves as a moderating influence to that impulse, and has prevented wars and bigotry in societies where it has been adopted.