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To: Ohioan
"National Socialism, like other forms of Socialism was premised upon an environmental determinant. (See The Lies of Socialism, in my debate handbook.) Hitler even ranted about the new "Classless/Casteless" Germany.)

It was precisely by denying genetic based aptitudes that Socialist theorists from Marx to Hitler, could justify persecuting the Jews,

That [cultural], not racial dogma, was the Nazi way. (The Nazis redefined "race" to mean acceptance of their Socialist dogma. "

Oh, those wacky egalitarian Nazis, always promoting their anti-racist views … Here’s a photo of a Nazi egalitarian measuring “environmental determinants” of Slavs:

They believed that ears were a good “cultural” indicator to differentiate potential Germanic Übermensch from Slavic “cultures”.

More on this here: HITLER'S PLANS FOR EASTERN EUROPE which including gassing these kids for their “cultural” views that might get in the way of their Nazi “classless” ideals.

I guess it’s classless if you deport or gas the lower classes.

Since you’re too busy to site something that echoes your “Muslims are genetically damaged because of Mongols killed the leaders” theory (that you insist is “history), I’m sure you’re too busy to site something that supports your blog claiming that Nazis and neo-Nazis are not racists.

In your battle to promote the roots for regional differences as genetic, you label those that also suggest environmental explanations as “being in the camp of socialists”. The general mix that determines a people’s potential is unknown. Here’s a decent summary of the evidence: I.Q. - Genetics or Environment Egalitarians believe intelligence is culturally determined, but you and (and neo-Nazis) think genes dominate our potential, quoting to me “that intelligence is the ultimate determinant of moral virtue”. You’re an unusual guy William.

I guess you wanted to narrow the focus of our disagreement with this articles criticism of Islam’s role in the underachievement of Muslems to Baghdad because it best fits your gene damage theory (that you along seem to hold). But even Baghdad’s ascension, stagnation and decline more closely follow the introduction of Islam than Mongol invasion. A good summary of that is in a Brief History of Assyrians . Although Peter BetBasoo places their “second golden age” from 33 A.D. to 1300 A.D, well into the conquest of Islam and ending with Timurlane, the foundation for their success was a culture assembled by Christians prior to Islam, and the decline was merely capped off by Timurlane’s invasion.

Armed with the word of God, Assyrians once again transformed the face of the Middle East. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries they began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European renaissance.

By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur. Also in the area of medicine, Hunayn ibn-Ishaq*s textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.

In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle*s theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces.

One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world. The School of Nisibis had three departments: theology, philosophy and medicine, and became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based.

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization which became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

But this great Assyrian Christian civilization would come to an end in 1300 A.D. The tax which the Arabs levied on Christians, simply for just being Christian, forced many Assyrians to convert to Islam to avoid the tax; this inexorably drained the community, so that by the time Timurlane the Mongol delivered the final blow in 1300 A.D., by violently destroying most cities in the Middle East, the Assyrian Christian community had dwindled to its core in Assyria, and henceforth the Assyrian Church of the East would not regain its former glory, and the Assyrian language, which had been the lingua franca of the Middle East until 900 A.D., was completely supplanted by Arabic (except amongst the Assyrians).

This is consistent with the Gattuso’s Thesis, and that with a dozen other authors I could find in a half hour. The success of the Muslim’s golden age came prior to the conquest of Islam and then stagnated under its rule.

The region’s golden age came before Islam, was propelled to its height by the same foreign works that sparked the West’s “golden age”, but Islam (translating to submission) minimized their role while Christianity that formed the foundation of the West was reformed by them.

166 posted on 12/14/2005 6:18:03 PM PST by elfman2
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To: elfman2
Endlessly repeating your rant, and citing many bits and pieces of data, which appear to suit your purpose, does not make a cohesive argument. You have conveniently ignored the data I cited, including my essay which deals with the Nazi position on the far Left. Your showing someone measuring facial structure, and claiming that that represents National Socialism, is too silly to comment on. (Are you unaware that before the Leftist Boas school attacked Physical Anthropology, all schools of thought, sought to define human types, not only by personality traits, but by physiological structures. Your guilt by association is not an argument. Do you call physicians, who recognize that racial and ethnic factors are factors in susceptibility to disease, "Nazis"; or do you just limit that tactic to people who call you out, on demonizing a people's Faith?)

But, again, I am too tied up to thoroughly take your latest apart, point by point. But if anyone else, besides you and me, is still following this thread, I will try to find some time to do so tomorrow. In the meantime, when are you going to acknowledge that the Turks, after the collapse of the Islamic civilization in Baghdad, were a major competitor to Chrisian culture in Europe. When are you going to offer some data to refute what I offered on the average IQ of contemporary Iraqis? When are you going to explain away the correlation between intelligence and success, in every land, regardless of the cultural differences.

Sure, no one argues, that one Culture is as good as another in promoting progress. They are not. But Culture follows personality types--not the other way around. It does not generate them. The very free wheeling, libertarian, American culture of the period 1783 to 1860, reflected the types who settled here. You had to have a certain courage, adventurousness, and wits about you to cross a cold, stormy ocean, and settle in a wilderness. The original Americans were selected by such traits, and the culture they created reflected, who they were.

Why you seek to pretend that all people have the same potential, I have no idea. Perhaps, you simply seek a vehicle to promote hatred of Moslems. Perhaps, you see demonizing Islam as a pragmatic political strategy, much as Hitler demonized Jews as his way of winning the Socialist mobs in the German streets. But, whatever your reason, stop projecting your Nazi tactics on others. Most of us seek to understand, not demonize, nor fantasize. Your "data" does not enlighten, it clouds the actual issues.

But, time permitting, I will return tomorrow and take your latest, point by point, for anyone who is interested.

William Flax

167 posted on 12/16/2005 1:35:15 PM PST by Ohioan
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