See you in Hell - one in three clergy believe in damnation

scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com ^ | 12-4-5 | JEREMY WATSON

[WKB]

THE Devil's work is far from done. More than a third of Scotland's clergy still believe in the literal existence of Hell as a place, according to a new survey.

Hell has not got any less hellish over the centuries either. The ministers, from a wide range of denominations, are convinced that lost souls will still suffer eternal mental anguish after death.

Hardliners hold out the prospect of eternal physical punishment as an added part of the package for the condemned. Judgment Day, whether it ends in being sent to Hell or not, is also a strong belief, the survey found, with more than half of Scottish ministers in no doubt that humanity is divided into the saved and the damned after they depart the ranks of the mortal.

Your personal chances of being sent to either Heaven or Hell, however, could depend on where you live. Ministers who believe in an eternal mental and physical torment are much thicker on the ground in the Highlands and Islands and on the west coast of the mainland.

Far fewer ministers in the east and south of Scotland are convinced that their parishioners will suffer a fiery fate being lashed by Satanic demons.

The survey, 'Hell in Scotland: A Survey of Where the Nation's Clergy Think Some Might Be Heading', was conducted by Dr Eric Stoddart, a lecturer in practical theology at St Andrews University.

The divinity scholar canvassed the views of 750 clergy from the Church of Scotland, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist and Scottish Episcopalian churches, as well as other Presbyterians and the Salvation Army, to find out what constituted a modern Hell.

Stoddart said: "The fire and brimstone may largely have been extinguished but the beliefs that many Scottish clergy hold concerning the potential horrors that await "the lost" continue to be dark and forbidding. All will not be well, if the majority of Scotland's clergy are to be believed."

Throughout the history of many religions, the concept of a fiery Hell has been used to frighten populations away from sinning. The reward for a morally good life - and those who repented before death - was a place in Heaven alongside your God, while those who sinned without remorse were destined to descend into the Devils's domain.

The concept of Hell as a literal place has declined in an increasingly secular world. But what surprised Stoddart is that "there is a solid number of Scottish ministers who still believe in eternal torment.

"There are those who maintain that Hell is something that should have gone away with the thinking that the Earth was flat, but it clearly hasn't," he said.

"I can understand that after death there might be some who think there are others who won't get into Heaven. They just won't exist. But for others to think there is really mental and physical torment came as a shock to me."

Belief in Hell appears to follow strict geographical boundaries. According to the survey, 37% of ministers in the Highlands, Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland are convinced the "lost" will go to Hell, with Strathclyde not far behind with 33%. This compares with 15% in the Lothians and Central regions, 9% in Grampian, Tayside and Fife, and just 6% in Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders.

"You are going to get more Hell belief in the Western Isles because of the strong presence of Presbyterian groups like the Free Church of Scotland," Stoddart said.

"Also, the west coast has a stronger Catholic presence as well as more conservative Baptist and other Protestant groups. By contrast, the east coast appears to be less Hell-fearing than the west."

Social commentators said the continuing strength of the literal belief among ministers in modern Scotland reflected the rise of religious fundamentalism across the world.

Rev Professor George Newlands, head of the Kirk's School of Divinity in Glasgow, said: "It is no surprise that there remains such a strong belief in Hell, because all over the world, religions are tending to become more fundamentalist and moving towards a kind of literalism. On many religious issues, there is a more literal interpretation of scriptures in the west than in the east, which corresponds to the north-south divide in the US."

Historian Michael Fry said the remaining fundamentalist areas which still believe in Heaven and Hell were a useful mirror image for the rest of modern, materialist Scotland. "It will not alter the fact, however, that most people will make their own moral choices."

A spokesman for the Catholic Church, which last week announced it was to scrap Limbo, the state between Heaven and Hell into which unbaptised babies were dispatched, said: "The Catholic Church affirms the existence of Hell, understood as eternal separation from God. However, the Church has never formally defined who, if anyone, is in Hell."

Stoddart, a former Baptist minister, says he no longer believes in Hell in the sense of a future destination. "But there is still a lot of value in talking about Hell because it allows us to say no to things in a moral sense. It's a way of making a judgment on what is right or wrong."

[Bonaparte]

Good question, cp. Even the judgment in a beauty contest has a consequence, doesn't it?

[dixiechick2000]

"A careful reading of the article reveals that it does not square with the claim in the title."


Oh?
Care to explain?

[dixiechick2000]

Bump that...

BIG time!

[ReformedBeckite]

Far fewer ministers in the east and south of Scotland are convinced that their parishioners will suffer a fiery fate being lashed by Satanic demons.

Hell is there any body living in the Northren part of Scotland. There probably isn't too many ministers in the Northren reaches of Scotland. And about the subject of hell, well they would probably say, "I've been there and done that."

[paudio]

If hell doesn't exist, why do we have to do good thing and/or believe in any savior?

[fish hawk]

A survey of said Born again Christians, Barna Survey

55% do not believe in the Holy Spirit
52% do not believe in the existence of Satan
35%do not believe in the resurrection of Christ
34%say they believe good works will get them to heaven
28%believe Jesus committed sin while here on Earth

George Gallup survey of Seminary Students: 
35% deny that faith in Christ is necessary 
Adult Evangelicals: 35% deny that faith in Christ alone
is necessary for salvation. 

This may be the reason the world is in the "handbagged".

[The Cuban]

Oh, you mean hELL.

[dixiechick2000]

So...

Tell us about the Barna Survey,
and please provide a link.

[chuckles]

Why can't people just read and believe their Bible. If you claim Christ, you must believe what He says. He taught more about Hell than Heaven. If you believe Christ is God in the flesh, then God is a liar if there is no Hell. I won't even attempt to try to explain or understand what or where Hell is, but I know my Savior isn't a liar, so there is a Hell, and I would be separated from Him if I go there. Confusion is from Satan, and that's what all this discussion is designed to do, confuse. There is no purgatory, limbo, or whatever. The Bible tells us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When you die, you see God, period. That is a bad thing if you aren't saved. If you are saved, it is the purpose of your being. We don't have the luxury of changing the meaning of the Bible to our whims. Jesus taught every Saturday from the same Bible we read. He spoke of Adam and Eve, so to hell with evolution. He never mentioned apes or pond scum when He taught. He told of Sodom and Gomorrah, so forget trying to pass off sexual abomination as acceptable to God. The people that sat under His teaching didn't come back later and say, well, you know that passage in Genesis, Jesus changed it to such and such.

Hell is real and their will be many go there. Jesus said the road there is wide. I believe few will be saved. Most people seem to think most will be saved. I see no indication of that in scripture. One of the reasons we are to "fear" the Lord, is to have reverence for His Word, and not to take it for grated that we are going to heaven because God is good and loves us. Jesus said there is "none good, no not one."

There is no second chance given either. What you do with Jesus while alive on earth is it, period. There is no chance for someone else to "pray" you to heaven. It is a personal invitation from the Holy Spirit that saves you. A family member has no control over what happens to anybody else. Otherwise you could blame mom for dads trip to hell because she didn't pray hard enough. Self righteous people will scoff at what the Bible teaches and make up what they want to hear because they don't fear God. A person that reads about the character of God and believes what is written about Him( after all He wrote it), will inquire diligently into His Word in order to make sure that they are saved. That path is truly narrow. They must believe that Jesus is God on earth in the flesh and that He gave His life willingly on the cross to pay for our personal sins. They must confess they are sinners and Jesus is perfect. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. There is no other. I hear people saying they are Christians, but that others can get to Heaven just by being good people. That is blasphemy to Jesus and you are saying to God that He wasted His Son's sacrifice because you didn't need it. Even to say that YOU found God is boasting that you had something to do with salvation. Grace is a mystery and should be studied endlessly to see the depths God went to to keep us from Hell. We ALL deserve Hell and death, and yet some are saved for only reasons God knows.

[Reverend Bob]

"The east coast appears to be less Hell-fearing than the west". Imagine that!

[presently no screen name]

yet some are saved for only reasons God knows


Because they accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, obeyed and followed His Word. We take up our cross daily and daily crucify our flesh.

Amen. Great post, chuckles. Your first two sentences says it all:
Why can't people just read and believe their Bible. If you claim Christ, you must believe what He says

[NoControllingLegalAuthority]

What is breathtaking about the article is that it implies more than half of Scotland's clergy does NOT believe there is a literal Hell when Hell is clearly mentioned many times by Jesus.

It makes you wonder about the multitude of ordained ministers who might be standing in Hell's front rows.

For those who say there is "limited seating available" in Heaven and only a handful will get in, I recall the words of Jesus:

"In my Father's house are many mansions."

The road to Heaven may be narrow but it is passable for ALL who believe in Jesus Christ as Savior.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

Consider this, from Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan in 1668:

Part III. Of a Christian Commonwealth.
Chap. xxxviii. Of Eternal Life, Hell, Salvation, and Redemption.

[12] And first, for the tormentors, we have their nature and properties exactly and properly delivered by the names of the Enemy (or Satan), the Accuser (or Diabolus), the Destroyer (or Abaddon). Which significant names (Satan, Devil, Abaddon) set not forth to us any individual person, as proper names do, but only an office or quality, and are therefore appellatives, which ought not to have been left untranslated (as they are in the Latin and modern Bibles), because thereby they seem to be the proper names of demons, and men are the more easily seduced to believe the doctrine of devils, which at that time was the religion of the Gentiles, and contrary to that of Moses, and of Christ.

[13] And because by the Enemy, the Accuser, and Destroyer, is meant the enemy of them that shall be in the kingdom of God, therefore if the kingdom of God after the resurrection be upon the earth (as in the former Chapter I have shewn by Scripture it seems to be), the Enemy and his kingdom must be on earth also. For so also was it in the time before the Jews had deposed God. For God's kingdom was in Israel, and the nations round about were the kingdoms of the Enemy; and consequently, by Satan is meant any earthly enemy of the Church.

Part IV. Of the Kingdom of Darkness
Chap. xlvii. Of the Benefit that proceedeth from such Darkness

[1] Besides these sovereign powers, divine and human, of which I have hitherto discoursed, there is mention in Scripture of another power, namely, that of "the rulers of the darkness of this world," [Ephesians, 6. 12] "the kingdom of Satan," [Matthew, 12. 26] and "the principality of Beelzebub over demons," [Ibid., 9. 34] that is to say, over phantasms that appear in the air: for which cause Satan is also called "the prince of the power of the air"; [Ephesians, 2. 2] and, because he ruleth in the darkness of this world, "the prince of this world":[John, 16. 11] and in consequence hereunto, they who are under his dominion, in opposition to the faithful, who are the "children of the light," are called the "children of darkness." For seeing Beelzebub is prince of phantasms, inhabitants of his dominion of air and darkness, the children of darkness, and these demons, phantasms, or spirits of illusion, signify allegorically the same thing. This considered, the kingdom of darkness, as it is set forth in these and other places of the Scripture, is nothing else but a confederacy of deceivers that, to obtain dominion over men in this present world, endeavour, by dark and erroneous doctrines, to extinguish in them the light, both of nature and of the Gospel; and so to disprepare them for the Kingdom of God to come.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-contents.html

[RoadTest]

"The ministers, from a wide range of denominations, are convinced that lost souls will still suffer eternal mental anguish after death."

Actually, flames. Once the fire has burned off all the flesh (no blood) worms crawl out and back into the skeletal bones, then the flesh gradually grows back on until it's complete and then the flames come and burn it all off again.

That's the resting times in between Satan and the demons torturing these souls.

It's real. Jesus testified of it over and over, and he's not a liar. The fact that belief has fallen out of fashion doesn't change heaven or hell.

[nmh]

Only a little over a third!

Hmmmm ... Jesus Christ is the one that spoke the most about Hell ... guess He didn't know what He was talking about ... .

Hell is for REAL. If CHrist says so, So do I. He isn't a liar as mere mortals are. Hell is going to be a very crowded place.

[NYer]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."[610] Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.[611] To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.[612] Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"[613] and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"[614]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."[615] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."[616] Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."[617]

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;[618] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":[619] Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen.[620]

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[WKB]

"A careful reading of the article reveals that it does not square with the claim in the title."


OK I'm waiting.

[Appalled but Not Surprised]

Not at all. That's pure-quill Christianity. Even Hitler could be in Purgatory if he repented in the instant between trigger pull and bullet impact.

OTOH, figure the odds.....

[Sensei Ern]

Thanks for the ping.

The idea that Hell should have gone away with the thought that the world was flat is in error.

The Bible teaches that the world is not flat. Clergy believed Aristotle and other Greek philosphers, rather than the Word of God.

So then, the Bible was right about the shape of the earth, it's right about Hell as well. The focus on Hell being hot is just a side note, to describe to the one who would not understand that the worst part of Hell is that those that are there have no awareness of the prescence of God.

The atheist may not care, but he cannot fathom the suffering that the soul would suffer were God not ever present.

[narses]

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