Posted on 11/29/2005 3:42:52 PM PST by Claud
Vatican considers dropping 'limbo'
Theologians meet to look again at fate of unbaptised tots
(ANSA) - Vatican City, November 29 - The Catholic Church appears set to definitively drop the concept of limbo, the place where it has traditionally said children's souls go if they die before being baptised .
Limbo has been part of Catholic teaching since the 13th century and is depicted in paintings by artists such as Giotto and in important works of literature such as Dante's Divine Comedy .
But an international commission of Catholic theologians is meeting in the Vatican this week to draw up a new report for Pope Benedict XVI on the question. The report is widely expected to advise dropping it from Catholic teaching .
The pope made known his doubts about limbo in an interview published in 1984, when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican's doctrinal department .
"Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith," he said. "Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always been only a theological hypothesis." According to Italian Vatican watchers, the reluctance of theologians to even use the word limbo was clear in the way the Vatican referred in its official statement to the question up for discussion .
The statement referred merely to "the Fate of Children who Die Without Baptism" .
Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, gave the commission the task of looking at the issue again in 2004. He asked experts to come up with a "theological synthesis" able to make the Church's approach "more coherent and illuminated" .
In fact, when John Paul II promulgated the updated version of the Catholic Church's catechism in 1992 there was no mention of the word limbo .
That document gave no clear answer to the question of what happened to children who died before being baptised .
It said: "The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God...In fact the great mercy of God, who wants all men to be saved, and the tenderness of Jesus towards children... allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who die without baptism." This view is in stark contrast to what Pope Pius X said in an important document in 1905: "Children who die without baptism go into limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but they do not suffer either, because having original sin, and only that, they do not deserve paradise, but neither hell or purgatory." According to teaching from the 13th century on, limbo was also populated by the prophets and patriarchs of Israel who lived in the time before Jesus Christ .
My reply was to Sinkspur. It appears that way as no. 204. How did it end up going to you?
As a practicing catholic, I have never been able to understand how a catholic could walk away from the Sacraments. Perhaps you can explain that to me.
Then I stand corrected. 8-)
And not because of St. Thomas' position alone, but because of your explanation.
By this logic, the following verse:
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
...can be said to exclude infants as well.
THIS TO ALL FREEPERS:
I must sign off, however, I have truly enjoyed this thread. I leave you all with this thought to ponder:
If we , individually, do what the Bible tells us and Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour, then we have nothing to fear. WE WILL BE IN HEAVEN IN THE END!
"What do you mean "no list" of infallible or dogmatically defined teachings? It's called the _Catechism of the Council of Trent_, the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_; these teachings are all collected in Denzinger-Schoenmetzer, _Enchiridion Symbolorum_, translated (I don't have the title at hand) and in countless other ways. Or get a copy of Ludwig Ott, _Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma_--he listes precisely what is defined at the highest level (_de fide_) and what is to be held at various levels below that etc"
So, to be clear, the entire Cathechism of the Catholic Church is infallible?
And Ludwig Ott's book is binding upon the Church? So, if I get Ott's book and read "de fide" I can take that list as the official statement of the infallible doctrines of the Catholic Church, which can never, ever be altered even by a pope speaking ex cathedra?
Was Ott commissioned by the Pope or the Magesterium to produce this list?
The Church does claim to know that canonized saints are in heaven, based on evidence of life of heroic virtue and confirmation by miracles, but these claims are not made infallibly. (A few theologians have claimed that canonizations are infallible but the Church has never ruled on that and the arguments against infallibility are strong, in my view because so much depends on human historical assessments of heroic virtue and on human scientific assessment of miracles--there's room for error there so canonization declarations, being part of a liturgical, disciplinary ruling, would not enjoy infallibility. Should the Church some day clearly rule that canonizations are exercises of ecclesial infallibility, I'll gladly accept it, but I don't expect such a ruling and, like limbo, I think it's wise to leave the question open.)
So, is Ott's work infallible?
bookmark
;)
(1) The Positive Document: "The Decree for the Armenians""The Decree for the Armenians", in the Bull "Exultate Deo" of Pope Eugene IV, is often referred to as a decree of the Council of Florence. While it is not necessary to hold this decree to be a dogmatic definition of the matter and form and minister of the sacraments, it is undoubtedly a practical instruction, emanating from the Holy See, and as such, has full authenticity in a canonical sense. That is, it is authoritative. The decree speaks thus of Baptism:
Holy Baptism holds the first place among the sacraments, because it is the door of the spiritual life; for by it we are made members of Christ and incorporated with the Church. And since through the first man death entered into all, unless we be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, we can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven, as Truth Himself has told us. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water; and it is indifferent whether it be cold or hot. The form is: I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. We do not, however, deny that the words: Let this servant of Christ be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; or: This person is baptized by my hands in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, constitute true baptism; because since the principal cause from which baptism has its efficacy is the Holy Trinity, and the instrumental cause is the minister who confers the sacrament exteriorly, then if the act exercised by the minister be expressed, together with the invocation of the Holy Trinity, the sacrament is perfected. The minister of this sacrament is the priest, to whom it belongs to baptize, by reason of his office, In case of necessity, however, not only a priest or deacon, but even a layman or woman, nay, even a pagan or heretic can baptize, provided he observes the form used by the Church, and intends to perform what the Church performs. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all sin, original and actual; likewise of all punishment which is due for sin. As a consequence, no satisfaction for past sins is enjoined upon those who are baptized; and if they die before they commit any sin, they attain immediately to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.(2) The Negative Document: "De Baptismo"
The negative document we call the canons on baptism decreed by the Council of Trent (Sess. VII, De Baptismo), in which the following doctrines are anathematized (declared heretical):
The baptism of John (the Precursor) had the same efficacy as the baptism of Christ,True and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and therefore the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost" are metaphorical.
The true doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is not taught by the Roman Church,
Baptism given by heretics in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost with the intention of performing what the Church performs, is not true baptism,
Baptism is free, that is, not necessary for salvation.
A baptized person, even if he wishes it, can not lose grace, no matter how much he sins, unless he refuses to believe.
Those who are baptized are obliged only to have faith, but not to observe the whole law of Christ.
Baptized persons are not obliged to observe all the precepts of the Church, written and traditional, unless of their own accord they wish to submit to them.
All vows made after baptism are void by reason of the promises made in baptism itself; because by these vows injury is done to the faith which has been professed in baptism and to the sacrament itself.
All sins committed after baptism are either forgiven or rendered venial by the sole remembrance and faith of the baptism that has been received.
Baptism although truly and properly administered, must be repeated in the case of a person who has denied the faith of Christ before infidels and has been brought again to repentance.
No one is to be baptized except at the age at which Christ was baptized or at the moment of death.
Infants, not being able to make an act of faith, are not to be reckoned among the faithful after their baptism, and therefore when they come to the age of discretion they are to be rebaptized; or it is better to omit their baptism entirely than to baptize them as believing on the sole faith of the Church, when they themselves can not make a proper act of faith.
Those baptized as infants are to be asked when they have grown up, whether they wish to ratify what their sponsors had promised for them at their baptism, and if they reply that they do not wish to do so, they are to be left to their own will in the matter and not to be forced by penalties to lead a Christian life, except to be deprived of the reception of the Eucharist and of the other sacraments, until they reform.
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The above passage is either Truth, or it isn't. Whether it applies to infants, I have no clue. I suspect not. Either way, I trust in a just God.
It seems clear that there are those in some place that is neither Heaven nor Hell, that are not without redemption and are covered by His grace, for whatever reason. Those people will join us who are present at the second coming of Christ, to be with Him forever.
Chubby Checker is rolling in his grave.
Thanks for mentioning it. Chubby will live on though as I use his recording when I entertain at parties.
But let's look at ROMANS 9 14-16 on the free will issue. I believe it says it pretty clear it God that exercises His will.
Rom.9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
************
Perhaps it should be considered an opportunity and a challenge. :)
Of course not. But I don't know of any errors in his compilation. Ott's book should give your earnest search for the truth a good start.
If you want to go directly to the infallible sources you'll have to read through the decrees of the various Church Councils and dogmatic papal pronouncements which are available online. But they won't give you any information regarding the various levels of Church teaching regarding diverse subjects.
I am not a Catholic and chose not to be...I however find it interesting to sit in on this conversation...We all understand water baptism but the verse says baptised by the water and the Spirit...What is the Catholic idea of the Spiritual baptism???
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