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To: vpintheak
If you believe that all clergy actually BELIEVE and preach the word of God, you are sadly mistaken. I prefer to place my faith in the unshakable word of God than to a bunch of educated idiots.

If you believe that this lame response is the best you can do, instead of some sort of substantive rebuttal (or better yet, a grasp of the point being made), go for it.

And personally, I prefer to learn directly from God's *actual* work (the world itself, and the evidence it provides) than from misunderstandings about the "unshakable word of God" from someone who uses "educated" as an insult.

Here, get a clue:

"The doctrine of the movements of the earth and the fixity of the sun is condemned [by Biblical literalists] on the ground that the Scriptures speak in many places of the sun moving and the earth standing still… I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the Scriptures, but with experiments and demonstrations." -- Galileo Galilei
Pop quiz: Who was right -- Galileo, learning from observation and evidence, or the Pope and his entire Church, relying on their reading of the text of the Bible?

Does the Sun actually revolve around the fixed Earth, as the Church was convinced the Bible clearly said?

"And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. [...] I add that the words 'the sun also riseth and the sun goeth down, and hasteneth to the place where he ariseth, etc.' were those of Solomon, who not only spoke by divine inspiration but was a man wise above all others and most learned in human sciences and in the knowledge of all created things, and his wisdom was from God."
-- Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, April 12, 1615 letter to Foscarini concerning Galileo's "heresy".
And:
"Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vaincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were in the year 1615 denounced to this Holy Office for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves, and also with a diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for holding correspondence with certain mathematicians of Germany concerning the same; for having printed certain letters, entitled "On the Sunspots," wherein you developed the same doctrine as true; and for replying to the objections from the Holy Scriptures, which from time to time were urged against it [i.e. for disagreeing with Bible-based criticisms - Ich.] [...] This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting, which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, [...] The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture. [...] Furthermore, in order to completely eliminate such a pernicious doctrine, and not let it creep any further to the great detriment of Catholic truth, the Holy Congregation of the Index issued a decree which prohibited books which treat of this and declaring the doctrine itself to be false and wholly contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture. [...] We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, Galileo, by reason of these things which have been detailed in the trial and which you have confessed already, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspect of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctrine that is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: namely that Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west, and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. [...] Consequently, you have incurred all the censures and penalties enjoined and promulgated by the sacred Canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents.
-- Papal Condemnation (Sentence) of Galileo (June 22, 1633)
If the Vatican get get Scripture so freaking wrong when they read it, I have even less confidence in the textual interpretations of amateurs. And I'll take 10,000 Christian clergy over *your* impression of whether evolution is compatible with scripture.

Why don't you leave the 1600's and come join the rest of us in the 21st Century?

156 posted on 11/22/2005 5:48:18 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

If you read some of the more recent studies of the Galileo controversy, you will find several points admitted. First, the Pope was a friend and supporter of Galileo, and had no objection to his work until Galileo insisted that his contention that the sun was at the center of the solar system was not just a scientific theory but a proven fact.

After a group of Aristotelian scientists complained, the Pope said, it's fine to call it a theory, just don't call it a fact. But Galileo refused to back down. So he was put under comfortable house arrest, as a protective measure by his friend the Pope, who didn't want to see anything worse happen to him.

As it happens, it is a fact that the sun is at the center of the solar system. But knowledgeable historians of science are careful to point out that Galileo was scientifically unable to prove it to be factual. The clinching proof didn't come until more than a century later.

The simple-minded idea that Christianity is closed-minded and discourages scientific advances simply does not hold up to careful historical reading. Science and technology took off in the West precisely because of Christianty, as Alfred North Whitehead persuasively argued many years ago. It was Christianity which taught that the universe is rational and comprehensible and that God does not act arbitrarily. Also that humans have free will and the ability to search into nature.

The contrary argument, that religion was an impediment to science, is the work of anti-Catholic bigots and anti-Christian atheists. The vast majority of western scientists, however, were Christians.


167 posted on 11/22/2005 5:59:48 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Ichneumon
Your "10,000 chrisian clergy" are unbelievers. There are many frauds in every profession, but nowhere so many as the 'clergy.' Our Lord spoke of them ('clergy' of his day on earth) as being "of your father the devil."

It would surprise me in no way if you put your 'faith' in one of them.

213 posted on 11/22/2005 6:55:29 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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