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Those Defensive Darwinists
The Seattle Times ^ | 11/21/05 | Jonathon Witt

Posted on 11/22/2005 12:44:07 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

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To: Right Wing Professor

Oh, I did not realize it was your personal creation. I thought it was a kind of physics that was widely accepted at some point.


521 posted on 11/23/2005 11:15:09 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

So, then I could say Chaos Theory is the basis for the Anarchists? String Theory the basis for Socialists? Game Theory the basis for women?


522 posted on 11/23/2005 11:16:35 AM PST by durasell
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To: Senator Bedfellow
The quickest way to overturn a judgement that something is impossible or otherwise can't be done is to get out there and do it.

Here again, the bar of impossibility is set up. Science doesn't do that.

523 posted on 11/23/2005 11:18:03 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Right Wing Professor
No. The concept of phsyics that "promotes" no angels is one I have never seen or heard of.
Of course you have. I just advanced it, and it's based on a comparison of modern physics and the physics of the middle ages.

IMHO, mathematical theory explains so many of the mysteries of this world. Consider the argument of free will versus determination. (Similar to evolution versus ID?)

Someone recently suggested that maybe it is neither black or white. Our life might be a combination similar to intelligent agents as in agent-based simulation modeling. It is worth considering. Maybe God has an overall plan, but to make life worth living, he allows free will.

A totally deterministic world only encourages socialism and laziness.

524 posted on 11/23/2005 11:22:30 AM PST by phantomworker (A new day! Begin it serenely; with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I assume you mean something other than design as understood from an articfact manufactured by humans.

Why? Assuming, arguendo, that humans are intelligent and design things, a test for intelligent design ought to be able to tell us that human-designed artifacts are the product of intelligent design.

Where there is organized matter, there is design.

In what sense are snowflakes and salt crystals "designed"?

Design is what separates the intelligible from the intelligible.

If we can understand something, it must have been designed? Why on earth should I believe that?

What emprical, objective, reliable test is there for your existence?

Solipsistic mazes are something you'll have to figure out on your own, I'm afraid - the problem doesn't interest me, because it never leads anywhere interesting.

525 posted on 11/23/2005 11:23:33 AM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: durasell
"So, then I could say Chaos Theory is the basis for the Anarchists? String Theory the basis for Socialists? Game Theory the basis for women?"

I did have a very funny exchange with a creationist (who I won't name) here a ways back who, when I mentioned the Germ Theory of Disease, extrapolated that that means evolution backers wish to use Germ Warfare against all those who disagree with them. lol I am still not sure if they really meant it or not. :)
526 posted on 11/23/2005 11:24:30 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: phantomworker
Our life might be a combination similar to intelligent agents as in agent-based simulation modeling. It is worth considering. Maybe God has an overall plan, but to make life worth living, he allows free will.

Marvin Minsky. I like that theory.

527 posted on 11/23/2005 11:24:31 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I thought it was a kind of physics that was widely accepted at some point.

Oh, it was. I just advanced the converse, the no-angles theory, like Calvert's 'no-design' theory. I think the analogy is pretty exact.

528 posted on 11/23/2005 11:26:23 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

I've come to believe -- through reading these threads -- that this is one of the key issues facing the U.S. How it is decided will define the country far into the future.


529 posted on 11/23/2005 11:27:06 AM PST by durasell
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Here again, the bar of impossibility is set up. Science doesn't do that.

Sure it does - it is impossible for you to exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. Of course, if you can show otherwise, fame and fortune is yours for the taking, but the "showing otherwise" part is your job, not mine.

530 posted on 11/23/2005 11:27:30 AM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Rightwing Conspiratr1; durasell; phantomworker; nicmarlo; Lakeshark; ...
Darwinism is the foundation for Communism and Nazism. The law suit and all the comments on it prove it."

Well, I guess that just settles it then. lol

You have any clue into that? My brain kinda shut down when I read it.

What is dialectical materialism? A study guide with questions, extracts and suggested reading

AMERICAN MATERIALISM

531 posted on 11/23/2005 11:29:59 AM PST by restornu (Rush 24/7 Adopt-A-Soldier Program solution to CNN)
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To: Right Wing Professor
I just advanced the converse, the no-angles theory...

No angles, eh? I like it already - physics should be a lot easier without all those damn vectors :)

532 posted on 11/23/2005 11:30:20 AM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: restornu

That's nice, but Marx' ideas were formulated before Darwin published.

1848 Communist Manifesto

1859 Origin of Species


533 posted on 11/23/2005 11:33:02 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: restornu

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/spencer-darwin.html


Dueling links. Herbert Spencer -- the forerunner of Ayn Rand -- was a devote capitalist.


534 posted on 11/23/2005 11:33:29 AM PST by durasell
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Rightwing Conspiratr1; durasell; phantomworker; nicmarlo; Lakeshark; ...
Darwinism is the foundation for Communism and Nazism. The law suit and all the comments on it prove it."

Well, I guess that just settles it then. lol

You have any clue into that? My brain kinda shut down when I read it.

The Real Ideological Root of Terrorism DARWINISM AND MATERIALISM

The Philosophy of Marxism Mark Scott looks at dialectical materialism and the contribution made by Marx and Engels

535 posted on 11/23/2005 11:35:54 AM PST by restornu (Rush 24/7 Adopt-A-Soldier Program solution to CNN)
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Sure it does - it is impossible for you to exceed the speed of light in a vacuum.

As far as we know today, this is true. It may not always be the case. Besides, you say this not from experience and observation, but because you believe what others have told you.

536 posted on 11/23/2005 11:36:01 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: restornu
Nice links; now show where the scientific theory of evolution has anything to do with this drivel.
537 posted on 11/23/2005 11:36:55 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Amish with an attitude; TN4Liberty
["Under the auspices of science, individuals are told that they cannot have faith and beliefs that are not supported by the scientific community"]

I experienced this first hand when attempting to take a college level biology class back in the 80's. The professor's words were:

"For all present who have a pre-conceived notion that life began on earth though means other than evolution, I'm going to ask you to leave those notions outside this classroom."

Perhaps there was more to it that you've not told us, but from just what you have posted, it sounds as if he wasn't doing anything like what TN4Liberty was talking about.

It looks like the prof wasn't telling you that you "couldn't have" a particular belief, he was just asking the class to set aside their preconceptions and keep an open mind to the material that was going to be presented, and/or asking the class not to start a disruptive debate over religion, when biology is religion-neutral.

In short, "evaluate the material on its merits, not immediately reject it because it seems to contradict something you may already believe or not believe." That seems a fair request.

I have a friend who teaches college-level biology, and she has found the need to make a similar statement, just because she has learned that if she doesn't, anti-evolution students start to make a big fuss and disrupt the class with objections as soon as she reaches any "touchy" material in the course material.

To head off such confrontations and keep the peace in the class, she gives a little "speech" the first day which somewhat resembles the one you describe.

A spirited debate followed that reverberated all the way to the dean's office.

Did it really require that, or were you perhaps overreacting to a request to keep an open mind and not just dig your heels in over material you might be predisposed to reject upon its first mention?

Despite an aplogy and invitation from the dean himself to continue the class,

Sigh.

I declined, knowing there was no way I would get fair treatment and didn't wish to take the GPA hit.

Are you *sure* you actually understood the prof's meaning?

Again, perhaps there was more to it than you have mentioned here, but just from what you *have* mentioned it doesn't seem worth starting a war over, or concluding that the prof was going to vindictively penalize you in some way.

538 posted on 11/23/2005 11:38:56 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Senator Bedfellow
In what sense are snowflakes and salt crystals "designed"?

In the sense that they become manifest to human intelligence, and thus objects of science. More specifically, they consist of organized matter that behaves consistently under consistent physical laws. Consistency, intelligibility, non-randomness - these are all part of design.

539 posted on 11/23/2005 11:39:31 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
As far as we know today, this is true. It may not always be the case.

If you want people to believe otherwise, the burden of proof is rightly yours.

Besides, you say this not from experience and observation, but because you believe what others have told you.

The results and the work that produced them are available for anyone to verify for themselves - nobody asks that science be taken on faith, least of all scientists.

540 posted on 11/23/2005 11:40:19 AM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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