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200k troops of Iraq are trained to some level of competence, when they have the ability to make a go of handling themselves, we go. Or if we are asked to leave earlier by an Iraqi President to leave, we go sooner.

A reasonable exit strategy. Beats the heck out of the "we're done when we're done" line Bush gives.

The problem is that our very presence is fueling the insurgency. Every day, more insurgants (not all of whom are immigrants) are created out of anger at our continued presence there. There comes a point in time when the Iraqi government has a better shot without us there. That's not "cutting and running." That's a recognition that we can't do everything.

Murtha's argument - which I have tried to argue for him just now - has merit as I see it. He deserves to be listened to, and not just shouted down by some chicken-hawk. No one has the right to call him a coward, even if he thinks the time has come for us to leave Iraq.

What a load.

"The problem is that our very presence is fueling the insurgency."

And what fueled the insurgency when we left immediately at the end of the first Gulf War?

When the invasion of Iraq began, the media's favorite talking point was would we pull abandon the Iraqis like we did before? How horrible that would be.

Now they want to make George do it. (It's just like their endless pressure on W's father to raise taxes after his pledge. And it will have far more tragic results. But the media hates our country.)

"Every day, more insurgants (not all of whom are immigrants) are created out of anger at our continued presence there."

Read some of the polls in Iraq. The vast majority of the people want us there. They know if we leave they will once again be at the mercy of the Bathists and other people who were thrown out of power, but who are armed to the teeth. You simply don't know history or the current situation -- or the demographics in Iraq.

"There comes a point in time when the Iraqi government has a better shot without us there. That's not "cutting and running." That's a recognition that we can't do everything."

No kidding. Of course that is what Bush has been saying all along. BTW, have you posted similar remarks about getting out of Bosnia or even South Korea?

"Murtha's argument - which I have tried to argue for him just now - has merit as I see it. He deserves to be listened to, and not just shouted down by some chicken-hawk. No one has the right to call him a coward, even if he thinks the time has come for us to leave Iraq."

Yeah, it's such a valid argument that even he wouldn't vote for it. Sort of like Charlie Rangel voting against his own bill to reinstate the draft. In fact, exactly like it.

Murtha is a cheap political hack who was using this stunt for self-promotion. Read his book. He's a stupid self-promoting grifter.

He wants us to lose in Iraq so that he can say he was right. Just like he was right about Vietnam. (In both cases he claims we don't have enough intel to fight the war.)

If we had more people like Murtha (and you) sixty years ago we'd all be speaking German.

You should go read the Jordan story about the female bomber. She said we are killing all the terrorists that existed. They are losing and they don't like it. They are also becoming fewer in number which is why her husband and her decided to go boom themselves.

What you have going on in Iraq is Syria and especially IRAN is sending in people to terrorize since they either want control of Iraq or to do anything to prevent them from being next.

They are scared and they are using the most stupid fanatical religious people among them to carry out what will be a losing strategy.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Iran has been pushing for some form of war in that region since Jimmy Carter's old hostage taking buddy became President.

Just remember, the Muslims of that area respect POWER!

We show power and they won't mess with us, we pull a Murtha and they will be fighting this battle far more on our shores within our borders.

The problem is that our very presence is fueling the insurgency. Every day, more insurgants (not all of whom are immigrants) are created out of anger at our continued presence there.

Dumb post of the month.

- Do you really believe that the insurgents will go away if we did?
- Do you believe that these vile people will go back to herding goats or living in some third world hell hole?
- Do you believe that these people (probably joined by the betrayed masses) will not continue killing us as we leave?
- Do you believe that these people are Iraqi patriots or people who will follow Americans where ever they go for the chance of martyrdom including our homeland?

One of the most vivid images stuck in my mind is that of the "Fall of Saigon", where the USA ran. The leftists in this country won't be happy till they see Americans, Iraq's democratically elected government and Christians frantically trying to to get on helicopters leaving the roof of the American Embassy in Baghdad.

That vision is one of suicidal treason and cowardess.

There comes a point in time when the Iraqi government has a better shot without us there

And I suppose we should trust Jack Murtha and the rest of the democrats, or maybe just you, to instruct us on when that time is reached. Thanks but no thanks. I'll just go with the people who are in charge and who's exit strategy you just copied in your first sentence. Too bad you didn't know enough about it to recognize the Bush plan when you endorsed it.