EVERY SINGLE MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IN AMERICA NOW HAS A $166,000.00 PUBLIC DEBT

Robert Drobot | 18 November 2005 | Robert Drobot

[Toddsterpatriot]

I don't see where you get an asset out of this.

Let us say, in this example, that it is $1,000,000 in $20 bills.

The FedGov can take this asset, $1,000,000 in $20 bills, and buy stuff with it. Or pay off debts.

[alley cat]

devane617 (An Alley-Cat mind is a terrible thing to waste)

HEY!! What is up with that tag line of yours???!!!

[CIB-173RDABN]

On any balance sheet, you have assets and debts. Here you are only presenting the debt side. To be fair, please list the assets of the Federal Government and then deduct the debt from the assets to give us a better picture.

After all, if every man, woman and child is responsible for the debt, then we are equally entitled to any assets.

Unless your purpose is to present a fact out of context for whatever purpose you may have.

[expat_panama]

if every man, woman and child is responsible for the debt, then we are equally entitled to any assets.

You know it and I know it, and IMHO Drobot knows it too.  He's evidently so far into this "shame" thing that he just doesn't want to think about it.

The way I like to see it is by remembering that the US government is an agent of the people.   The people have wealth --the total right now is about $50 trillion.  This $8trillion public debt is chump change --not only when you compare it to the wealth (barely 16%) but that the percentage is going down. --in '94 it was 19%.

Your reasoning also applies to this unfunded liabilities horse-hocky.   If we're supposed to prorate them, then we'll also have to prorate the "unrealized projected benifits".  Sooner or later everyone has to come back to the planet earth.  Nobody starts out raising a family moaning about the 'unfunded liability' of having a child.   The focus is always on realizing that the future is better only if we plan for success and then we make it happen. 

[zeugma]

I'm not one of those folks who thinks having a $8,083,374,482,184.25 (as of 11/17/2005) debt is a good thing. Despite the fact that as a percentage of GDP, the number isn't too far outside of the historical average, it still isn't something that we should just say, "oh well, it's always been like this", and not worry about it.

It is a fact that in order to maintain spending at current levels, the government has to borrow from equity markets in order not to run out of money. It is also a fact that in just October of this year, the government had to pay $18,803,709,320.82 in interest on this debt. Further, for fiscal year 2005, $352,350,252,507.90 was spent on interest to cover this debt. This means that more than $350 Billion dollars of our tax money was not spent to pave one road, to fund the needs of a single soldier out in the field, or do any of the other countless things that the government has (rightly or wrongly) committed itself to do.

Put another way, you can add up all income taxes from the following states: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming and dedicate every single dollar paid in income taxes to nothing but paying interest and you'd still be $10Billion short. (Source: IRS.Gov)

There is something deeply wrong about that.

[zeugma]

I think you misunderstand this slightly. Those 50000 $20 bills are a liability from FedGov's standpoint, not an asset.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I think you misunderstand this slightly.

No, in the example you gave, it is you who misunderstand. If the government has a liability for borrowing $20 bills from the Fed, it has an asset of $20 bills.

[Robert Drobot]

Thanks for the input, Hoplite. Post 155 seemed compelling given the flaming I've been taking over my original post, so I hid behind it.

I'm not pretending to be knowledgeable about the workings of the Fed or the Treasury. However, it's not rocket science to see what Bush is doing to this country financially. This is what I had hoped this thread would center its attention upon. I guess I didn't succeed in that goal.

[Robert Drobot]

Thanks for the Robert Heinlein suggestion.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm sorry Robert - I thought you were talking about this debt, not unfunded liabilities.

Interesting link. Of course adding up debts without adding up assets is kinda useless. Of course since household net worth (assets-liabilities) is at an all time high, that would show that this guy is misleading, at the least.

[Hoplite]

Yeah, it was one of those "WTF?" things until I saw it included household debt, and sitting on a home mortgage tends to put it all into perspective once you get used to the notion that some pretty hefty debts are manageable if you chop 'em up into bite size chunks o' yer posterior every month. = )

When I saw it was unfunded liabilities we were talking about, I looked at what's been going on with my property taxes (2% increase every year) and figured I've got an extra $40K worth of tax over the next 30 years due to that measly 2% increase - and that's pretty much an unfunded liability as far as my present budget goes, if I understand the concept correctly.

At any rate this looks to address the issue at hand, and I'll have to spend some time with it later to get into it. ("Infinite horizon accounting": who knew such a thing existed?)

[expat_panama]

it still isn't something that we should just say, "oh well, it's always been like this", and not worry about it....

Some people choose to worry and complain and some people enjoy solving problems and putting things in order.  You made a big list of things to worry about so you must be in the sad problem group and not the happy solution group.  You're free to worry your brains out if you really want.   While you're at it, you can even worry about the fact that you're going to die, everyone in the US is going to die, and the sun is going to explode and destroy the earth.

FWIW your attitude is not only pathological, it's also a burden to others.   I believe that God is Good, and to spend a life choosing misery is a sin.  Let me know if you ever decide to enjoy life.

[Toddsterpatriot]

At any rate this looks to address the issue at hand, and I'll have to spend some time with it later to get into it.

I hate the Concord Coalition. Buncha tax collectors for the welfare state if you ask me. The way I look at the unfunded liabilities is like this. Social Security has an unfunded liability of about $12 trillion. Sounds like a disaster. Except what that means is the government will have to raise taxes by $12 trillion to pay out all the benefits. So, net-net the money goes from one set of Americans (workers) to another set of Americans (retirees). So to simply call this a liability without looking at the other side of the equation is kinda silly.

Unless the system is privatized it's gonna suck for either the workers whose taxes increase or the retirees whose benefits are cut. Most likely both. In the mean time household net worth is at a record level despite the sky is falling posts from Willie and his pals.

[expat_panama]

We rate debt by subtracting it from assets and getting a balance. We can also say that the impact of unfunded liabilities is an issue of timing the expected unrealized benefits. IMHO this approach tells us that America can and should remain solvent by dumping Social Security and farm price supports. This will also cut federal spending by half.

[bert]

I spent all mine in Iraq. One of the best investments ever.

[zeugma]

You know, I've been trying to discuss this entire issue in a rational manner, and have been doing so with several participants, yet you respond with ad hominem. I don't see that as contributing anything useful to the discussion at all. Is that what you come here to free republic for?

It is fortunate that others are more interested in actually discussing things. That is how we can learn from one another.

[Kellis91789]

I'd scoop up some of those big chunks of Antarctic ice shelf before they melt and contribute to rising sea levels.

I'd also divert water from any river in danger of flooding over its banks. Hopefully, the wormholes device has a biologicals filter on it. Wouldn't want to tranport move critters into new areas where they have no natural enemies to keep them in check.

[remember]

I'm not one of those folks who thinks having a $8,083,374,482,184.25 (as of 11/17/2005) debt is a good thing. Despite the fact that as a percentage of GDP, the number isn't too far outside of the historical average, it still isn't something that we should just say, "oh well, it's always been like this", and not worry about it.

True. The most worrisome thing about the debt is not its current level as a percentage of GDP. It's the fact that it is rising on the eve of the Boomer retirement. The following graph shows our government's long-run projections for the public debt, taken from the most recently released budget:

The actual numbers and sources are at http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/pro2006.html. As can be seen, the public debt is projected to reach 250% of GDP by 2075. This is more than double the high that it reached at the end of the World War II.

Of course, nobody knows for sure what the future level of the public debt will be. But as long as the government is projecting financial disaster for the next generation, it needs to be working on some plan to avoid it.

[Petronski]

I'm not pretending to be knowledgeable about the workings of the Fed or the Treasury.

No one was misled on that question.

[endthematrix]

It's a true story that one guy did pay "his share" of the debt. Sad ending though, he did not get his liberty.