Posted on 11/14/2005 8:00:59 AM PST by Ezekiel2517
Did they happen in Operation Storm? No, because the population had -- almost all of it had already left before the Croatian military entered the towns and, therefore, there were basically no people there for them to terrorise.
against the counts in Gotovina's indictment, you'd find that Gotovina is charged for crimes against those Serbs who stayed behind long enough to fall under the control of his troops.
Ergo, Galbraith's comments don't get Gotovina off the hook for his date with the ICTY, as the fact that x Serbs escaped doesn't allow Croats to ignore what happened to those who stayed behind and were victimized by Croatian forces.
If the Croats are so hell bent on getting Gotovina off the hook, all they need to do is submit proof to the fact that somebody else was in charge of Croatian troops during the pertinent time frame, and the ICTY can then indict the proper party for the crimes enumerated in Gotovina's indictment.
So all Croatia needs to do is find a willing scapegoat to take the fall for their hero.
However, as this hasn't happened yet, it would appear that patriotic volunteers for that particular duty are in short supply. Go figure.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, however, the Socialists who run the International Court want to prosecute only the Serbs and Croatians. Meanwhile, the Muslims in Albania are still committing atrocities, killing Serbs, and burning churches under the helpful eye of the UN.
Actually, Hoplite, you need to read the first Gotovina indictment and then compare it to the second. In the first indictment, the charge is that Gotovina ethnically cleansed 150,000 from Croatia. Then after Galbraith testified in the Milosevic case and effectively destroyed the indictment, the prosecutor amended the indictment to argue that the destruction of private property AFTER THE OPERATION amounted to ethnic cleansing in that it prevented Serbs from RETURNING TO THEIR HOMES. Thus, Del Ponte is employing a "get Gotovina at any cost" prosecution. Her problem, however, is that she has indicted Croat generals Cermak and Markac for the same crimes, and in her most recent indictment of Cermak she claims that he took over for Gotovina immediately after the military portion of the Operation was completed (August 6th). Thus, Gotovina is not responsible for the destruction of private property for which Del Ponte has indicted him. All of this only provides further proof that Gotovina is right, in that his prosecution is political and not legal. And it provides further proof of why the U.S. should never join the ICC.
And I'd counter that Croatia's inability to come to grips with it's past is a reason to keep it out of NATO and the EU, until such time as it treats murderers, and those who protect them, like the common criminals they are.
I didn't say that Cermak and Markac are also indicted and therefore Gotovina is off the hook. I said that the prosecutor has made a factual allegation that Cermak took over full control from Gotovina on August 6, 1995, which means two days after Operation Storm began. This factual allegation in fact is true, and it does get Gotovina "off the hook." Either Cermak was responsible for crimes committed after the military operation was over, or Gotovina was. The prosecutor chose Cermak.
Was there anyone in the Croatian/Serbian/Kosovo war that wasnt guilty of some war crime?
I suggest you read the relevant indictments a little more closely.
Hoplite, I read the documents very closely, and am certain that I know much more about Storm than you. First, you are mistaken that "there were no shortage of crimes between August 4 and August 6." There were virtually none. Second, Cermak was not in a military position, but civilian. Civilian authority was restored in the entire area by August 6th. That means that Gotovina has no responsibility after August 6th for law and order in the wider area. That responsibility went to Cermak and the civilian authorities of Croatia. I suggest you do a bit more research before you make statements that are without evidentiary support.
39 of the 97 victims listed on the Schedule to Gotovina's indictment were murdered between the 4th and 6th of August. While this may not constitute evidence in your world, your world, much like that of your Serbian apologist cousins, is becoming both clearer to me and less relevant with each successive of your posts.
Further, if it was Gotovina's troops who were perpetrating the crimes as part of a conspiracy to rid the Krajina of it's Serb inhabitants, as is alleged in the indictment, then the responsibility is his. Converseley, if he wasn't part of that alleged conspiracy, he's still responsible under command responsibility for failing to reign in his troops after being informed of the crimes they were perpetrating - and both the crimes and the fact that Gotovina was notified of his troop's crimes by members of the UN are not in question.
That is the position of the US Government, the EU, and the ICTY. If it's not yours, well, too frickin' bad - last time I checked it wasn't NATO or the EU looking to join Croatia.
Gotovina's on the run for a good reason - either through commission or omission, he's guilty, and no amount of massaging the facts or sophistry on your or anybody else's part is going to change that.
Hoplite, as I said before, you obviously have not done any independent investigation into the facts and therefore are forced to rely solely on the allegations of the first Gotovina indictment in order to debate me. Unfortunately, in your rush to respond to me, you did not fully investigate the charges of your most recent post. First, the "39 of 97" victims listed in the first indictment against Gotovina do not appear in the second indictment against Gotovina. Do you know why? Obviously not. First, some of the "murder victims" of Gotovina were in fact discovered to be ALIVE AND WELL AND LIVING IN SERBIA AND BOSNIA, respectively. See, e.g. Bosiljka Beric and Mirjana Beric in the annex to the first Gotovina indictment. Second, the remainder of the alleged victims were killed in areas that, it turns out, were not part of the territory which Gotovina was responsible for, but rather were part of the territory of General Petar Stipetic in the Sector North. General Stipetic has been exonerated of these incidents by Carla Del Ponte, so one can conclude that these individuals were in fact NOT MURDERED. Third, there is no evidence whatsoever that has been published by anyone, including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, that any soldier under Gotovina's command committed any crime. The fact that the indictment alleges broadly that every person walking the territory of Sector South in Croatia was part of the "Croatian armed forces" and therefore under Gotovina's charge is ridiculous, and is just as discredited at this point as the charge that Gotovina "murdered" people who are in fact alive. The fact is, Hoplite, Gotovina is innocent. And the fact is, you are ill equipped to debate the specific facts of the Gotovina indictment at this point. It would take you years to catch up. I invite you to do so. Until then, however, I suggest that you refrain from attempting to disguise your inadequate preparation for this debate by starting a flame war with words like "apologist," and conclusory statements like "Gotovina is a war criminal."
This has nothing to do with the International Criminal Court (ICC). General Gotovina is not charged by that court and the USA has not signed up for that court because of concerns about its univeral jurisdiction, self-definition of crimes, and a lack of oversight leading to "political" prosecutions.
Gotovina has been indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). The USA supports this tribunal with people and $. Its purpose is narrowly constrained by geography (former Yugo), time period (covers the recent wars), and type of crimes. Further, the UN Security Council (on which the US has a permanent veto) oversees it. US Special Operations teams have arrested Balkans war criminals and turned them over to the ICTY and we still have an element in Bosnia to that purpose.
Finally, go to this link and then click on Indictees by Fighting Faction to see exactly who's been indicted; every faction is included.
Serbs represent the most; it's not hard to figure out why if you know anything about what happened in the Balkans Wars of the 90s.
Thanks for the clarification -- it's hard to keep these International Courts straight, they seem to be growing like mushrooms.
That was the original indictment, and here's the amended indictment:
COUNT 2
(MURDER)
28. Between 4 August 1995 and 15 November 1995, Croatian forces murdered at least 150 Krajina Serbs by means of shooting, burning or stabbing. Specifically referred to in this Amended Indictment are the murders of 1 person in the Benkovac Municipality, 30 persons in the Knin Municipality, and 1 person in the Korenica Municipality.
Listed in the Schedule, attached hereto, are further particulars of such murders.
29. Between 4 August 1995 and 15 November 1995, the accused Ante GOTOVINA knew or had reason to know that forces under his effective control were about to murder Krajina Serbs as described in paragraph 28 above, or had done so. The accused Ante GOTOVINA failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent the commission of such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.
By these acts and omissions, the accused Ante GOTOVINA did commit:
Count 2: a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, namely Murder, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 read with Article 7 (3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
Gee - I wonder what schedule they're talking about? A train schedule, perhaps?
No, they're referring to the original schedule, aren't they Ezekiel, and you're the one who's not up to snuff on what's going on, inasmuch as what's going on is that the rest of the world isn't interested in your revisionism and desire for immunity for heroes from the Fatherland war or whatever you call it.
If the Berics are alive, great, 2 down, and only 95 to go to take care of count 2.
Hoplite, wrong once again. The schedule was amended and the 97 of the first schedule are reduced to 32, of which only 7 are alleged to have been committed on the first two days of Operation Storm (August 4th or 5th). Again, because you are ill informed and are only obtaining your information from the enlish version of the second Gotovina indictment on the tribunal's website, you jump to the false conclusion that the first annex is still in effect. If you go to the version of the second indictment that appears in Croatian on the tribunal's website you will see that I am correct and that, sadly, you are misinformed. See http://www.un.org/icty/bhs/cases/gotovina/indictment/got-ai040219b.htm
Any other questions, hoplite?
I note, however, that neither Bosiljka Beric nor Mirjana Beric are on the amended list, which is good for your position, and that, as you noted, 7 of the listed murders took place prior to Cermak's taking over the Knin Garrison, which is not so good for your position. But overall, considering how easy it was to remove 65 of the murder charges, think how easy it would be for Gotovina to dispense with the remaining 32...
But I jest. We'll be just as happy to try Gotovina for the names on the amended schedule as we would the names on the initial one, and shall continue to hold Croatia at arm's length until either Gotovina turns himself in or Croatia grabs him and extradites him.
And in the meantime, our State Department will continue to refer to him as what he is, a despicable war criminal.
Enjoy.
The concession is appreciated.
Now, as to the remaining seven, let me tell you about all seven of these alleged "murder victims" of Gotovina. Here is a the tribunal's main witness on these seven "victims of murder" which Gotovina is alleged to be responsible for:
____________________________________
Witness Stevan Grujo, son of Dusan, born 1.10.1936 in Uzdolje, municipality of Knin:
On 5 August 1995, around 16:00 I left my village on a tractor. With me were my wife Marija, as well as Pera Borjan, the widow of Acim; and Milos Borjan, son of Stevan, born 1969 in the village of Uzdolje.
When we arrived in Vrbnik Polje we were stopped by four army reservists of the (Serbian) Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, as well as one civilian, and we took them with us along to Knin.
Near the church of St. Nicholas, which is in the village of Vrbnik, we were stopped by Croatian soldiers, and there were about 15 to 20 of them. Milos Borjan was driving the tractor at the time and on the orders of the Croatian soldiers Milos stopped the tractor and we were immediately told to get off the tractor. At that moment someone shot and injured one of the Croatian soldiers. I did not see who fired the shot but I assume it was fired by a Croatian soldier because I did not see any of our soldiers in the vicinity. The (Serbian) reservists who were with us all had firearms, AP and PAP rifles and they surrendered them to the Croats. As soon as the Croatian soldier was shot, one of the Croatian soldiers who stopped us opened fire first upon the reservists among us and then upon Milos Borjan and then the civilian. He fired upon all of them with shots to the body, from about 2 to 3 meters. I saw that the bullet that killed Milos Borjan was fired into his stomach and exited through his belt on the other side. I hid behind the tractor and that same soldier wanted to kill me as well, but because my wife Marija and my cousin Pera were crying, he did not kill me. This group of Croat soldiers ordered me, my wife and Pera to go to the southern barracks in the town of Knin, where the United Nations Protection Force was located. My tractor and all of our belongings remained where we left them, as the Croats would not allow us to take anything with us.
________________________________________
Now let's see. Armed Serb soldiers decide to attempt to flee the scene by intermingling with elderly Serb civilians on a tractor. They are stopped by Croatian soldiers, presumably because the Croat soldiers want to disarm the Serb soldiers and detain them, if necessary. One of the Serb soldiers shoots and wounds a Croat soldier, and the Croat soldiers return fire and kill all of the Serb soldiers along with a civilian.
This is ethnic cleansing? This is murder? For crying out loud, the Croat soldiers let the three living elderly Serbs leave and even tell them to go to the UN compound in Knin for shelter. Murderous Croat soldiers decide to allow witnesses to their "murder" live? And then tell them to go to the frickin' United Nations to tell their story?!?
The whole thing is ridiculous. I don't think the Croat soldiers who were fired on first committed a war crime by firing back on the Serb soldiers. If anything, the Serb soldiers committed a war crime by intermingling with civilians. What is even more proposterous is to accuse the overall military commander of the operation, General Gotovina, for "command responsibility" over the soldiers in this episode.
I doubt he even knew what happened here, and if he learned of it later his reaction would probably be the same as mine, which is, "Where the hell is the war crime here?"
This incident is the basis for the remaining charges against Gotovina for murdering civilians. It is almost as stupid as the charges against Gotovina for "murdering" people who are in fact alive today.
Hoplite, you can choose to believe whatever you wish. However, to call Gotovina a "despicable war criminal" on the basis of the facts described above is, I think, grossly unfair.
Deep down I think you might even agree with me.
Now tell me again why Gotovina isn't going to the Hague and getting himself acquitted like Papic or Delaic, or found innocent like the cousins Kupreskic...
Deep down inside I think it's you who knows, and knows that the blood on Gotovina's hands won't be washed off quite so easily.
Ultimately, it's a pointless exercise trying to get Gotovina's indictment withdrawn by dint of arguments made here on FR, either he goes to the Hague, or Croatia continues to suffer the consequences.
And just 'cuz it's topical, here's a blast from the past. I'd forgotten all about it, but it looks like the transcripts were authenticated. (I haven't read the actual transcripts.)
Hoplite, he won't surrender for the same reason that the U. S. will never sign on to the I. C.C. As for consequences to Croatia, EU membership negotiations started Oct 3. NATO noone gives a rat's ass about. as for transcripts, you're wrong on that too, but that's a different thread.
And actually I'm down to zero victims of Gotovina. (post Aug 5 is now alleged to be Cermak's responsibility). cmon hoplite, you know he's innocent. ;-)
Zeke, what the EU gives, it can take away.
THE EUROPEAN UNION OPENS ACCESSION NEGOTIATIONS WITH CROATIA
EU Member States decided in Luxemburg on 3 October to launch accession negotiations with Croatia. The opening of the accession negotiations was made possible by the assessment of the Council of Ministers that Croatia was fully cooperating with the International War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) set up by the UN. This assessment by the Council was based on a report by the ICTY Chief Prosecutor Del Ponte which outlined the progress that Croatia had made over recent months.
The European Commissioner for Enlargement, Mr. Olli Rehn, said: “I am very pleased that Croatia has responded positively to the need to fully cooperate with the Tribunal. ... Croatia must maintain this degree of cooperation with the Tribunal, leading to the resolution of the one remaining issue, namely, the location, arrest and transfer of General Ante Gotovina to the Hague.”
of course it can Mark. But as long as Croatia maintains its present level of cooperation, it will join the EU with or without Gotovina in The Hague.
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