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Europe needs its immigrants
Christian Science Monitor ^ | November 10, 2005 | Helena Cobban

Posted on 11/12/2005 11:29:14 AM PST by Graybeard58

CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA. - The race riots that have rocked France for the past two weeks have been violent and harmful - but noticeably disorganized. Their lack of clear organization may make it harder to find a way to end them. But it also offers the hope that smart action by the French authorities can calm the situation and hasten the launching of a deep new national dialogue over what it means to be "French" today.

The scale and duration of these riots show that this dialogue is needed now more than ever before. If it fails to occur, attitudes among the mainly immigrant youth who have rioted might soon harden, and extremist might organizations start to exercise more sway within France's long-marginalized banlieues (suburbs).

The vast majority of rioters are young men of North African or West African origin. Many are reportedly not just citizens of France but also members of the second or third generation of their families to live in Europe. But despite having grown up immersed in French culture, many continue to experience strong discrimination. They feel excluded from the social and economic mainstream. Though they receive relatively generous welfare benefits, unemployment among members of long-established immigrant communities is often three or four times the already high national average. Even French citizens with degrees from prestigious universities have trouble finding jobs if they look "too dark-skinned" or have "Muslim-sounding" names - and especially if they are women who choose to wear Muslim-style head scarves. Indeed, the French government has resolutely upheld recent legislation that forbids schoolgirls from wearing Muslim head coverings.

The government has enforced this law on the grounds of its strong commitment to "secularism." To be truly French, this law seems to say, you have to act in a totally secular manner in public places. It is not a position that encourages diversity or dialogue.

Many other European countries now also face the challenge of redefining their relationships to communities of citizens of non-European origin. Across Europe, sheer demographics has, for the past half-century, driven a large and sustained inflow of immigrants. Birthrates among the continent's "natives" have been falling for decades. In a number of European countries, the average number of births to each woman has fallen to 1.3. (The rate for "replacement" of population is 2.1. The US rate is 2.0.) Carrie Douglass, an anthropologist at Virginia's Mary Baldwin College, has noted that for large numbers of European young people, the version of "the good life" that they seek is no longer one that includes having children. Economic planners recognize that "native" Europeans need working-age immigrants to support these countries' rapidly aging "native" populations.

The emergence of large communities of citizens of non-European heritage has posed a distinct challenge to many European countries, and they have responded in very different ways. When I grew up in England in the 1950s, immigrants from Pakistan and the Caribbean were already a recognizable and constructive part of the local culture and economy. In 1981, when my son attended a preschool in West London, he was the only boy in his class not sporting a top-knot of hair secured with a Sikh-style kerchief. (But his little Sikh-British classmates all spoke far better "West London English" than he did.)

At some levels, Britain seems to have done a better job than France of managing cultural diversity. But Britain has also seen the emergence of a generation of citizens of South Asian or Caribbean origin who have felt it hard to know where or how to "fit in." Several British cities have seen race riots over recent years. In addition, some young British citizens, having gravitated to Al Qaeda, committed the deadly London transit bombings of July.

Germany has worked hard to build a good relationship with the long- established communities of Turkish-origin and other nonnative citizens who originally entered the country as guest workers - but it ended up as an unwitting host to several key cells of Al Qaeda organizers. Culturally liberal Spain hosted the immigrant individuals who killed 191 people in the July 2004 train bombings in Madrid. And in the liberal Netherlands last year, a violent Islamist of Moroccan descent - born in West Amsterdam - killed filmmaker Theo van Gogh.

These are not easy issues to address. In Europe, as throughout much of US history, members of native-born populations often fear the arrival and integration of newcomers; yet, in all these cases, the interdependence between the "natives" and the newcomers is real. So far - though there have been many quite unwarranted episodes of antiimmigrant violence - thankfully few voices in Europe have called for "kicking the newcomers out." But so far, too, no country in Europe has done a satisfactory job of "welcoming the newcomers in."

In France, the challenge is particularly urgent. Even while the authorities plan how to restore order, they should also be planning the searching nationwide dialogue that needs to follow.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: aliens; immigration; likeaholeinthehead
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1 posted on 11/12/2005 11:29:16 AM PST by Graybeard58
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To: Graybeard58

Somebody has to do the work that the French don't want to do.

Hey, wait a minute, the French don't want to work at all! Not even defend themselves. Mon Dieu, what ever shall they do?!!


2 posted on 11/12/2005 11:34:41 AM PST by garyhope
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To: Graybeard58
Sure. We need immigrants from Anatolia that feed off the social system and build mosques. If they have a chance they will turn cathedrals into mosques. That's what Europe needs?

Europe needs to get babies. It's that simple.

BTW, the US is facing the same issues as the immigrant population from non-European countries increases. It will the change the American culture and value system. Eventually the US will look more like Mexico than Europe.
3 posted on 11/12/2005 11:34:46 AM PST by seppel
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To: Graybeard58
We could give them some of our immigrants. There are more Latin Americans coming to America than America can reasonably support. Many of them are good, hard-working people. Most of them share a common language and culture with at least some of the countries in Europe.

In fact, I would even favor an amnesty program with relocation assistance for the first group of illegals who come forward to volunteer to move to Europe.

4 posted on 11/12/2005 11:35:26 AM PST by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Graybeard58

If Europe thinks it NEEDS MUSLIMS then it deserves what it is already getting....this is cultrural diversity (such a perverted and abused term) that is dangerous, and highly undersireable. These people are there TO TAKE, NOT GO GIVE.


5 posted on 11/12/2005 11:35:52 AM PST by EagleUSA
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To: All

Europe doesn't "need its immigrants". It needs to start having 3-child or more families again.


6 posted on 11/12/2005 11:43:58 AM PST by BushMeister ("We are a nation that has a government - not the other way around." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: EagleUSA

"If Europe thinks it NEEDS MUSLIMS then it deserves what it is already getting...."

I'm not sure why these folks think that in the future a majority or near majority of non-Europeans will toil happily in sub-standard jobs in order to support a retired, leasure class they view as racist. But they do.


7 posted on 11/12/2005 12:02:36 PM PST by Owl558 (Pardon my spelling)
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To: Graybeard58
"But despite having grown up immersed in French culture, many continue to experience strong discrimination. They feel excluded from the social and economic mainstream."

Any chance at all that they've excluded themselves from French culture by rejecting it and keeping 8th century Mohammedism alive and well in their neighborhoods?

How is it possible that they practice a medieval cult in a modern country and then blame the native citizens for "discriminating" against them?

8 posted on 11/12/2005 12:04:06 PM PST by TheCrusader ("The frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" -Pope Urban II, 1097AD)
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To: Graybeard58

We accept slavery until slavery is deemed evil and immoral and is abolished. Then you have to deal with the slaves and their decedents.

Slavery, in any form, is a fatal self-inflicted wound.


9 posted on 11/12/2005 12:10:17 PM PST by twas
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To: Graybeard58
The premise from the title of the article isn't addressed until halfway through....and then only in one paragraph...and not very well.

Overall, it's just Grade F twaddle.

10 posted on 11/12/2005 12:10:42 PM PST by Psycho_Bunny (Base. All Yours = Mine.)
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To: Owl558
"I'm not sure why these folks think that in the future a majority or near majority of non-Europeans will toil happily in sub-standard jobs in order to support a retired, leasure class they view as racist. But they do"

Another deadly consequence of "a woman's right to choose"; and it's hitting America too... in the form of illegal immigration. The politicians don't care about the illegality of mass immigration, all they know is that it's a temporary bandaid for a suffering economy and a means to replace the 50 million American babies sacrificed at the altar of abortion.

11 posted on 11/12/2005 12:10:48 PM PST by TheCrusader ("The frenzy of the Mohammedans has devastated the churches of God" -Pope Urban II, 1097AD)
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To: Owl558

" I'm not sure why these folks think that in the future a majority or near majority of non-Europeans will toil happily in sub-standard jobs in order to support a retired, leasure class they view as racist. But they do."

Great point.


12 posted on 11/12/2005 12:12:34 PM PST by Rosemont
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To: Graybeard58

Europe does indeed need immigrants, however; it does NOT need Muslim immigrants.

There are plenty of Mexicans that would probably jump at the chance to go to Europe. Central America, South America, sub-Saharan Africa, and India all come to mind.

As long as Europe persists in preferring Muslim Arabs, they will die a dhimmi death.


13 posted on 11/12/2005 12:25:28 PM PST by gogogodzilla (Raaargh! Raaargh! Crush, Stomp!)
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To: Graybeard58
The race riots that have rocked France for the past two weeks have been violent and harmful - but noticeably disorganized.

If these riots are disorganized, then it snows in Hell. These riots are highly organized. The Muslims put their young on the street, because human rights groups would criticize real force used against them. They burn cars and buildings -- property, because the French socialists see personal property as something evil. The Muslims wisely avoided attacking people. I heard of only two deaths. But, the Muslims did shoot routinely at police; that's OK. These riots are controlled from Muslim Citadels, euphemistically known as Mosques. The Christian Science Monitor is written by dopes.

14 posted on 11/12/2005 12:28:59 PM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Some say what's good for others, the others make the goods; it's the meddlers against the peddlers)
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To: gogogodzilla

Legal immigrants to this country have historically worked hard, over come discrimination and other hard ships and have managed to assimilate and prosper. I don't see this happening with muslims in any non muslim country.

Being a muslim seems to be more than a religious affiliation, more like a 6th century mind set into which they want to drag everybody else.


15 posted on 11/12/2005 12:32:23 PM PST by Graybeard58 (Remember and pray for Sgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: Graybeard58
Birthrates among the continent's "natives" have been falling for decades. In a number of European countries, the average number of births to each woman has fallen to 1.3. (The rate for "replacement" of population is 2.1.

Guess I’ll just have to go over there and show them how it’s done – or, is the low birthrate because of high taxes? People can’t afford to have kids?
16 posted on 11/12/2005 12:37:20 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: R. Scott
or, is the low birthrate because of high taxes? People can’t afford to have kids?

The availability of abortion as birth control has something to do with it.

17 posted on 11/12/2005 12:39:26 PM PST by Graybeard58 (Remember and pray for Sgt. Matt Maupin - MIA/POW- Iraq since 04/09/04)
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To: Graybeard58
LOL, LOL, LOL!!

Oh Jesus what morons.

The scale and duration of these riots show that this dialogue is needed now more than ever before. If it fails to occur, attitudes among the mainly immigrant youth who have rioted might soon harden

Hey, retard, the attitudes are already as hard as the rocks that they throw.

Christ, the country is burning and you are worrying about attitudes getting hard??

Get a life and get out of ours.
18 posted on 11/12/2005 12:43:46 PM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: Graybeard58
The availability of abortion as birth control has something to do with it.

We have it here too – and our birthrate is still 150% of Europe’s.
19 posted on 11/12/2005 12:43:52 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Vigilanteman
Many of them are good, hard-working people.

Would you say the same thing about your neighbor even though he was embezzling from his company?

20 posted on 11/12/2005 12:44:18 PM PST by raybbr
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