Revealed: UK wartime torture camp [WW II]

The Guardian (UK) ^ | November 12, 2005 | by Ian Cobain

[aculeus]

The British government operated a secret torture centre during the second world war to extract information and confessions from German prisoners, according to official papers which have been unearthed by the Guardian.

More than 3,000 prisoners passed through the centre, where many were systematically beaten, deprived of sleep, forced to stand still for more than 24 hours at a time and threatened with execution or unnecessary surgery.

Some are also alleged to have been starved and subjected to extremes of temperature in specially built showers, while others later complained that they had been threatened with electric shock torture or menaced by interrogators brandishing red-hot pokers.

[farmer18th]

And then there is the guilt. Guilt, unrequited guilt, is as necessary for a liberal as getting up each morning.

...provided absolutely no guilt is ever assigned to indigenous people, sexual deviants, or teenage murderers.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

"For Liberals, life without guilt is no life at all."
Beautiful...

[varyouga]

Those poor misunderstood Nazis.

[sgtbono2002]

The reason we won the second World War was because politicians didnt run to the press with state secrets, The press wasnt imbedded and they printed what they were given to print , what the government wanted them to print. People were patriotic not whining liberals.

[patriciamary]

I am not sorry,we are at war.These people want to end our lives.I could care less what they do to them.Whatever it takes to get the information needed to protest the lives of USA citizens.Doesn't the public get it?

[aculeus]

1) Noel Coward, Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans (1943)

Verse

We must be kind
And with an open mind
We must endeavour to find
A way -
To let the Germans know that when the war is over
They are not the ones who'll have to pay.
We must be sweet
And tactful and discreet
And when they've suffered defeat
We mustn't let
Them feel upset
Or ever get
The feeling that we're cross with them or hate them,
Our future policy must be to reinstate them.

Refrain 1

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When our victory is ultimately won,
It was just those nasty Nazis who persuaded them to fight
And their Beethoven and Bach are really far worse than their bite
Let's be meek to them-
And turn the other cheek to them
And try to bring out their latent sense of fun.
Let's give them full air parity
And treat the rats with charity,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

Verse 2

We must be just
And win their love and trust
And in addition we must
Be wise
And ask the conquered lands to join our hands to aid them.
That would be a wonderful surprise.
For many years-
They've been in floods of tears
Because the poor little dears
Have been so wronged and only longed
To cheat the world,
Deplete the world
And beat
The world to blazes.
This is the moment when we ought to sing their praises.

Refrain 2

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When we've definately got them on the run
Let us treat them very kindly as we would a valued friend
We might send them out some Bishops as a form of lease and lend,
Let's be sweet to them
And day by day repeat to them
That 'sterilization' simply isn't done.
Let's help the dirty swine again
To occupy the Rhine again,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

Refrain 3

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When the age of peace and plenty has begun.
We must send them steel and oil and coal and everything they need
For their peaceable intentions can be always guaranteed.
Let's employ with them a sort of 'strength through joy' with them,
They're better than us at honest manly fun.
Let's let them feel they're swell again and bomb us all to hell again,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

Refrain 4

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
For you can't deprive a gangster of his gun
Though they've been a little naughty to the Czechs and Poles and Dutch
But I don't suppose those countries really minded very much
Let's be free with them and share the B.B.C. with them.
We mustn't prevent them basking in the sun.
Let's soften their defeat again - and build their bloody fleet again,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

[SuziQ]

Has the "Guardian" ever done this kind of breathless reportage on the Gulags?

[cpdiii]

Something that everyone seems to be missing about the torture issue, is the motives. Americans, and Brits, and our allies in Iraq have been tortured and executed in the most vile of manner for the shock value it renders when put on the news by Al Jezerra and the Main Stream Media. Our side is trying to extract information that will prevent this. Our manner of extracting the information is actually rather mild and consists of sleep deprivation, psychological pressure etc.

On the same subject Senator McCain says torture does not work. This man knows torture up close and personal. However, in his writings he said the North Vietnamese could extract information from almost anyone and the prisoners would resist as much as they could without being beaten to death. Some of our prisoners were beaten to death. I wish Senator McCain would inform us which one of his statements on torture is true.

I would like to present Senator McCain with this choice: When he was imprisoned in North Vietnam would he have supported extreme torture of a North Vietnam agent captured in South Vietnam if it would have resulted in saving American lives. I think we all know the answer.

[wita]

I am going to step up and say categorically and without doubt we won the war simply because the creator of this earth was on our side.

There were plenty of whining liberals, and plenty of political intrigue, but at the front lines generally speaking, duty, honor, country, prevailed and brave men who knew why and what we were fighting for.

It was one more battle in the endless battles since time began, against the forces of evil. Battles that must be fought and won despite all odds if we are to remain free and able to work and worship as the God of this earth would have us.

[Jonah Johansen]

You are correct and I am not arguing against your conclusion, some of the points used to support your argument are just historically not accurate.

"Germany had declared war on Great Britain."
Historically False. Great Britain and France declared war on Germany
"Germany was attacking British cities and killing British people"
Misleading The total number of British civilians killed by German Bombing was a tiny fraction of the number of German civilians killed by allied bombing.

"There was no Geneva Convention, and the Nazis weren't exactly conducting themselves in a manner befitting the gentlemanly profession of arms. "

As far as I know on the Western Front the Germans and allies treated each other prisoners relatively well, their was a Geneva convention and it was generally followed by both sides. (unlike in the Pacific)
I think the survival rate of captured Allied pilots (in European theatre) was over 90%.

Of course the genocide of the death camps makes any moral equivalence ridiculous. Since the Allies were unaware of this at the time, it can not be used as a justification.

My point is simply that when speaking of POWs, it is tough to make the case that Germans treated allied military prisoners any worse than the allies treated German military prisoners.

[Republic of Texas]

After what the Brits went through in WWII, and considering how close they came to EXTINCTION, I would excuse them if they ran death camps back then.

[IronJack]

Great Britain and France declared war on Germany

German aggression, not French or British imperialism, was responsible for the war. Yes, technically the Allies declared war first, but only in response to continued German predations. Metaphorically, Germany had "declared war" on Europe.

Misleading The total number of British civilians killed by German Bombing was a tiny fraction of the number of German civilians killed by allied bombing.

At the time of the Blitz, the British were not capable of delivering bomb payloads to Germany. At that point, the effort was pretty one-sided. Eventually, the Allies caught up and -- as you point out -- surpassed the Nazis. But in the beginning, it was the Luftwaffe's show.

As far as I know on the Western Front the Germans and allies treated each other prisoners relatively well, their was a Geneva convention and it was generally followed by both sides. (unlike in the Pacific) I think the survival rate of captured Allied pilots (in European theatre) was over 90%.

I wasn't speaking just about the Wehrmacht and the Luftstalags. I was talking about the genocides and the concentration camps.

Of course the genocide of the death camps makes any moral equivalence ridiculous. Since the Allies were unaware of this at the time, it can not be used as a justification.

While no one was sure of the extent of the Nazi atrocities, by 1943 there was ample evidence that Jews and others were being rounded up and exterminated.

My point is simply that when speaking of POWs, it is tough to make the case that Germans treated allied military prisoners any worse than the allies treated German military prisoner.

Which is why I didn't try to make that case.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

Noel Coward, Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans (1943)

Thanks for posting that! < :)

[ScaniaBoy]

Noel Coward, Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans (1943)

Thanks for posting that! < :)

Ditto!

Iron Jack wrote: "While no one was sure of the extent of the Nazi atrocities, by 1943 there was ample evidence that Jews and others were being rounded up and exterminated."

Please, note these lines in the song (written 1943):

And day by day repeat to them
That 'sterilization' simply isn't done.

[Bringbackthedraft]

When the Germans killed a fellow prisoner in a US PW camp we went to the Russians for advise as to how to handle the interrogation to determine who killed him. One of the methods we used was placing a prisoner on a building's steam radiator. After awhile on the radiator the names were learned. Those responsible for the seaman's (U Boat crewman) death were hung at wars end and are now buried at Ft Leavenworth's PW grave yard. Use torture? Who us? Nahhhhhhhhh, no way.

[VOA]

More than 3,000 prisoners passed through the centre, where many were
systematically beaten, deprived of sleep, forced to stand still for
more than 24 hours at a time and threatened with execution or unnecessary surgery.

This sounds like the treatment a friend of mine got in getting through
architecture school at a Big 12 university.

[aculeus]

Noel Coward, Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans (1943)

Thanks for posting that! < :)

Ditto!

It was so much better as delvered by Noel, dressed in white tie, smoking a cigarette, oh so sophisticated ... as Bomber Harris and his RAF and the US Army Air Corps dumped tonnes of HE on German cities.

Memories!

[IronJack]

... Bomber Harris and his RAF and the US Army Air Corps dumped tonnes of HE on German cities.

Pity you don't show as much sympathy for the thousands of Britons killed during the Blitz, including the poor slobs in Coventry whose only crime was being in the "expend-all-ordinance" flight path of the Luftwaffe bombers.

Also a shame you're so critical of an alliance that used its eventual power to overthrow a madman whose cabal of misfits was systematically eradicating entire races.

You seem to buy the moral equivalency argument.

[aculeus]

Pity you don't show as much sympathy for the thousands of Britons killed during the Blitz

Oh get a grip.

I write a throw away line on an FR thread and you accuse me of having no sympathies for the civilians killed by Nazi bombers.

I suppose you also think Noel Coward was actually asking his fellow Brits to be nice to the Germans.