When Torture is the Only Option

Los Angeles Times ^ | 11/11/2005 | DAVID GELERNTER

[SirLinksalot]

When torture is the only option ...

DAVID GELERNTER

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN's proposed legislation incorporating into U.S. law the Geneva Convention ban on mistreating prisoners. The bill, which bans cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, passed the Senate 90 to 9. To say it's got momentum is putting it mildly.

But President Bush says he will veto the bill unless the CIA is exempted. Vice President Cheney has led the administration's campaign for the exemption. It's a hard sell; pro-torture politicians are scarce around Washington.

But of course you don't have to be "pro-torture" to oppose the McCain amendment. That naive misunderstanding summarizes the threat posed by this good-hearted, wrong-headed legislation. Those who oppose the amendment don't think the CIA should be permitted to use torture or other rough interrogation techniques. What they think is that sometimes the CIA should be required to squeeze the truth out of prisoners. Not because the CIA wants to torture people, but because it may be the only option we've got.

McCain's amendment is a trap for the lazy minded. Whenever a position seems so obvious that you don't even have to stop and think — stop and think.

SNIP

Michael Levin published an article challenging the popular view that the U.S. must never engage in torture. "Someday soon," he concluded, "a terrorist will threaten tens of thousands of lives, and torture will be the only way to save them."

Suppose a nuclear bomb is primed to detonate somewhere in Manhattan, Levin wrote, and we've captured a terrorist who knows where the bomb is. He won't talk. By forbidding torture, you inflict death on many thousands of innocents and endless suffering on the families of those who died at a terrorist's whim — and who might have lived had government done its ugly duty.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Anyone who condones, enables or conceals torture or secret prisons should face prison.<<<

I not only condone torture, I recommend it. I also believe all terrorist suspects should be held in secret prisons so their captivity cannot be used for propaganda purposes.

>>>The only conceivable answer is that they want a place where the torturers won't have to face a jury of their peers for their actions. Maybe you're comfortable with it but I'm damned sure not. We're not talking about a slippery slope here we're talking jumping off a cliff . . . Waiting for us at the bottom of the cliff is the end of America as we know it.<<<

I get it, you are John McCain! Admit it! You are that miserable wacko named John McCain!

[Allen H]

Where is your evidence that any terrorists in custody have been tortured? You have no evidence. You are passing judgement on things that you can't back up.

Also, what is really perverse is your failure to recognize that there is a distinction between the SPECIFICS I laid out, and REAL TORTURE. As I'd expect from a liberal, you have TOTALLY failed to address anything I said. You didn't respond to a single specific thing I said. Not one. So your response has no credibility whatsoever. There is NO evidence that ANY wrongdoing has been done by anyone in the CIA or the military. You have NOTHING but supposition from an ILLEGAL leak.

Most of all, I want you to answer what I asked in post #112. 8) You talk about perverse and perverted so much. What's perverse and perverted is not fighting an enemy and doing whatever it takes to win and end the war, and if that means playing head games with terrorists who would just as soon GUT YOU than look at you, sobeit. Do you think these terrorists are impressed or care about Americans like you that wail and cry for them and are so outraged about "torture" that didn't even take place? Boy, if they had you, they'd start the camera rolling, and wack your head off even as you scream that you are on their side and you defended them against other pervers Americans like me. You REALLY need to open your eyes and look at the real world. It's an ugly place, and the people you are fighting against in this country, are the ones trying to keep you alive, despite the best efforts of the people you are defending, who want to KILL YOU, DEAD! What part of that do you not comprehend? 8)

[Allen H]

That sounds just about right, except at one time, john mccain did actually fight for and sacrifice for his country. I'd bet money that "lpm1888" is under 25, and has never sacrificed anything for this country. I could be wrong about the former, but I bet I'm correct about the latter. 8)

[donaldo]

Thanks. I'd like to have the goof ball concession. It seems every damn liberal in America is on goof balls. One could make a fortune.

[hosepipe]

No need for torture..
Tie a fishhead to their ankle and make them swim to shore.. -OR- spill their guts..

[Doctor Stochastic]

For what crimes should torure of the non-participants be allowed? Rape? Murder? Jaywalking? Theft? Smoking in a car with a baby on board?

[Doctor Stochastic]

The real problem with torture is that the subject will talk; she will say anything her captor's want to hear. Some may even confess to the murder of Lincoln or the stabbing of Suky Tawdry, Polly Peachum, Jenny Diver and Lucy Brown.

[Doctor Stochastic]

You left out:

5. Inflicting pain for the pleasure of the spectators.

[Allen H]

You know "lpm", it is also quite offensive that you sit so self righteous spouting how perverse this all is, and you, if you're an American that is, sit in America, eating from the fruits of the labors of those who came before you, enjoying the life you have in America that was ONLY made possible, by over 200 years worth of men and woman doing things that you consider to be so perverted. So what's that make you when you pass judgement on those today and those before them, doing what they have to to keep this country safe and free, and here you sit in judgement of them, while enjoying the liberty and freedom that their actions bought for you? THAT my friend is perverted.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

"I am disgusted."

Dear Mr Disgusted...please define 'torture'. Panties on the head? Loud music? Solitary confinement? Air conditioning set to 50 degrees? Other? Playboy pics? A barbequed pork sandwich? No urinal in the cell? No pot to poop in?

Our government has not gone crazy. John McCain, maybe. The US Senate, maybe. Let's get real. And since when are 'secret' prisons torture? What 'secret' prisons? If you know about some, they aren't so secret are they?

Your daughter has been kidnapped by a derranged neighbor kid. He is threatening you by telling you that he is going to kill her. You find out that someone you know can tell you all the details about who has her, where she is. That someone won't tell you. You have about one hour to get the truth. There is no one, no cops to help you. 'Torturing' the bastard who has the info and won't tell you will get the info you need. No other option. What are you gonna do?

[Allen H]

I think you got that right. 8)

[Allen H]

That's an old excuse to not try and coerce someone. These terrorists KNOW if they know something we want. And if confronted properly, they'll turn over that information. Plus, professionals aren't morons. They can tell when someone is lying. Thermal imaging for example can show when someone is lying or making something up, and the bodies reaction from that is different than a reaction from stress or fear. Interrogators aren't morons.

[Doctor Stochastic]

How do you define a terrorist? Be specific.

[donaldo]

Terrorist: Someone who flies airplanes into buildings. DUH! Someone who videotapes a Jew being beheaded. DUH!

[Allen H]

Are you serious? Okay, this is my personal definition of a "terrorist" Someone, particularly a muslim given the current war, who travels to another nation, which is not their own, for the express purpose of engaging in acts of hostility (sniping, bombing, kidnapping and beheading, etc) or engages the American and Coalition forces, while not in a uniform, with the intent of killing said forces, and disrupting and overturning the democratic governments of Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other democratic nation. Also, those who randomly use guns, rockets, mortors, grenades, explosives, or any other devices to INTENTIONALLY inflict casualties to the civilian populace of any nation, whether they be in a plane, on a ship, on in their country of origin, or in another country as a tourist. Also, if they use such devices to attack and kill American or coalition forces abroad, in an act of coercion to force an outcome which would overthrow the democratic process in those and other nations. That is my definition of a terrorist as I see it, and those are the people whom I would have no compunction doing the things to that I described in my previous posts #107 and 114.

Most of those in Iraq that have been killed fighting us have been foreign terrorists, and those which are Iraqi hussein loyalist insurgents, have killed more of their own people than they have Americans, and are no longer part of the Iraqi Army, and are not obeying the laws set forth by the newly elected government of Iraq, and their actions are indistinguishable from those of the foreign terrorists. That is my definition of "terrorists". Is there another? There certainly isn't any of that that applies to American policy or it's military personnel.

[Allen H]

You gave him the short, I gave him the long, no way to misunderstand either way. Heh heh. 8)

[Allen H]

Hear hear!!! 8) THAT is real world speak.

[Allen H]

Now now, don't be mean! You're trying to pin him down with facts and get him to be specific instead of just making random ambiguous accusing statements lacking logic and reason. 8) Shame on you! ;)

[Txsleuth]

Heck in my neighborhood...we have barking dogs...my granddaughter keeps me from sleep and food...

and the teenagers across the street are always blasting their music...

My husband and I fight over the thermostat everyday..he likes it hot...and I like it cold..

I think I am being TORTURED.....lol

I bet Sen. McCain wants to stop any and all "yo mama" jokes, also.....sigh.