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Is Intelligent Design a Bad Scientific Theory or a Non-Scientific Theory?
Tech Central Station ^ | 11/10/2005 | Uriah Kriegel

Posted on 11/10/2005 4:43:24 AM PST by Nicholas Conradin

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To: Fester Chugabrew
Every phenomenon can be explained by natural causes. Every phenomenon can be explained by supernatural causes. From a scientific standpoint the distinction is moot.

The first sentence is false (What is a miracle then?) The last sentence is false. A scientific standpoint only concerns that for which there is evidence.

Meanings, schmeanings. Science is about evidence, not meanings. "Science" doesn't "understand" anything. Reification.

Science takes what it does not understand and applies what we call "natural" meanings.

For science to consider that there are "supernatural" causes requires proof that the "supernatural" exists prior to the cause, the one thing that cannot be proven.

The application of a meaning, or degree of human understanding, has no effect upon the reality of the thing.

Yes, and science is the process of discovering that "reality."

One may proudly take the stand that there is no such thing as the supernatural. Few scientists go that far.

Of course, to do so would require Proving the Negative.

Science is entitled to explore everything that may be real.

Aye, and therein lies the rub. The "supernatural" - by definition - leaves no evidence of its "existence" in the natural world, i.e., "the real." If it did it wouldn't be SUPERnatural and would simply be natural. This is called a conundrum.

There is nothing unscientfic about inferring a designer where design is present. There is plenty philosophical in asserting design is the product of anything but a designer.

Begs the Question that there is a "design." This is a limitation of language, not fact. To say that a foot is "designed" to assist an animal in walking is inaccurate. To say that a foot "evolved" to assist an animal is more accurate.

An analogy is the "ether" which was once thought to be the medium through which energy traveled. It is a false concept which has no validity. Same for saying that evolved structures are "designed." It is anthropomorphism. There is no evidence of a designer, pure and simple. There is no evidence that anything is "designed."

841 posted on 12/04/2005 6:22:20 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings
The first sentence is false (What is a miracle then?)

On the contrary, name any phenomenon that cannot be explained by "natural" causes.

842 posted on 12/04/2005 6:45:28 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: LogicWings
Can't handle the content of the post so you toss off slurs, eh?

LOL! Read your own posts to me, then get back to me with your apology.

As for the "content" of your post ... well, it would be a stretch to call it that. For example, back to the very root of our disagreement:

You clearly don't have any understanding of the fundamentals of logic. I didn't "invent" Can't Prove a Negative, this is a standard logical fallacy. If you don't understand or accept it, it only proves your ignorance of standard scientific criteria for evidence.

ROTFLMAO!!!!! Oh, goodness ... the old "I don't have to prove it but you have to accept it or you're too stupid to understand" ploy. That, truly, takes the cake! You know, it's becoming abundantly clear that you can't prove your assertion, and you're just too prideful to admit it. I never claimed that you "invented" it, but you're claiming special knowledge about the statement.

You said: "you can't prove a negative."

Please prove the statement.

843 posted on 12/04/2005 7:52:51 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Fester Chugabrew
On the contrary, name any phenomenon that cannot be explained by "natural" causes.

Virgin Birth

844 posted on 12/04/2005 8:00:51 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings

Did a Virgin Birth really happen?


845 posted on 12/04/2005 8:07:31 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: r9etb
You said: "you can't prove a negative."

If you are either too stupid or too ignorant of logic to understand why this is true then you have violated the three fallacy rule in a single sentence.

For the final time - you cannot prove true that which does not exist and for which there is no evidence.

You can't Prove a Negative.

846 posted on 12/04/2005 8:11:16 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Did a Virgin Birth really happen?

Can't prove it did.

847 posted on 12/04/2005 8:12:28 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings

So your understanding of science is that it may only deal with the proven and provable? Science has yet to prove the cause of gravity.


848 posted on 12/05/2005 4:28:22 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: LogicWings
If you are either too stupid or too ignorant of logic to understand why this is true then you have violated the three fallacy rule in a single sentence.

Sigh. Must you resort to this crap yet again?

For the final time - you cannot prove true that which does not exist

No problem here. This can be demonstrated, by (for example) showing that the assumption of truth leads to a contradiction. Logic says that by demonstrating a contradiction, it's possible to prove certain statements false. (And thereby, incidentally, proving a negative: X does not exist.)

and for which there is no evidence.

This, however, has no place in the discussion. A lack of evidence is not the same thing as "non-existence." Non-existence implies lack of evidence, of course, but the converse is not true. (I'm sure you remember this from your logic classes.)

You can't Prove a Negative.

Symbolically, then, in the form you've provided above, you're saying that "Proofs of Negatives" do not exist. However, "you can't prove a negative" has the unfortunate property that it is a negative.

If you can prove then statement, then it is a false statement -- a classic dilemma.

And of course, if you cannot prove this statement, then it is without meaning: a self-negating statement.

So please curb your unpleasant tendency to toss insults instead of logic, and PROVE YOUR STATEMENT.

849 posted on 12/05/2005 7:03:52 AM PST by r9etb
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Science has yet to prove the cause of gravity.

Proving the cause of gravity, and that it exists are two different things. Your conflation skills are sloppy.

850 posted on 12/11/2005 5:42:36 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings
Proving the cause of gravity, and that it exists are two different things.

An in stating that gravity "exists" has science thereby proven gravity to be anything less than supernatural?

851 posted on 12/11/2005 5:45:47 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: r9etb
However, "you can't prove a negative" has the unfortunate property that it is a negative. . .

And of course, if you cannot prove this statement, then it is without meaning: a self-negating statement.

You are Conflating proving "statements" false with proving there is no physical evidence for that which does not exist.

852 posted on 12/11/2005 5:56:21 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: SalukiLawyer

BTTT


853 posted on 12/11/2005 6:03:53 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: SalukiLawyer

BTTT


854 posted on 12/11/2005 6:06:44 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: 185JHP

Hi, just curious why you pinged me twice on your BTTT on the ID/Evolution thread. Anything in particular that requires my attention? :-)


855 posted on 12/11/2005 6:23:29 PM PST by SalukiLawyer
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To: SalukiLawyer

The double ping was a mistake. The BTTT was b/c I liked the way you stated the situation as it exists. FReegards


856 posted on 12/11/2005 6:31:41 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: LogicWings
You are Conflating proving "statements" false with proving there is no physical evidence for that which does not exist.

I am merely asking you to prove your statement. You've been blustering for a few weeks now.

857 posted on 12/11/2005 7:22:11 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
I am merely asking you to prove your statement.

Prove that I haven't.

858 posted on 12/21/2005 5:35:49 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings

Cop-out. Not unexpected.


859 posted on 12/21/2005 6:51:24 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Nicholas Conradin

ID is an excellent scientific theory. It is, in fact, the only true theory that will soon replace the pseudo theory of evolution.

Evolution is all speculation with zero speciation.


860 posted on 12/21/2005 6:55:36 PM PST by Baraonda (Demographic is destiny. Don't hire 3rd world illegal aliens nor support businesses that hire them.)
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