Posted on 11/05/2005 7:05:19 AM PST by new yorker 77
I didn't say she was brain dead -- just that she was incapable of feeling "horror". Terri had suffered massive and irreversible brain damage, and was in a persistent vegetative state. She had no consciousness.
"there would have been no need to administer sedatives or pain meds to her...which they did according to news reports."
Yes they did, and yes there was no need to do so.
It wasn't up to the relatives (though, indeed, the relatives did disagree). Terri had told her husband and others in the past that she wouldn't want to live brain damaged on artificial support. The judge in the case heard the testimony and had clear and convincing evidence of that fact. He, not her husband, ordered the feeding tube removed.
Her parents brought this to national attention. They successfully turned this into a "we-want-her-alive, her-cheating-husband-wants-her-dead" issue when it was not. The press ate it up.
In this response and in your response in Post 42, you make positive statements which are nothing more than your opinions. You did this in our previous 'discussion', so I'm going to say this once and that's all; you are entitled to your opinions, and those of us who think differently are entitled to ours. There is no way to prove the things you present as a fact, nor can I prove beyond a doubt what is my opinion. Therefore, we are wasting one another's time. I don't mean to be unkind, but you are not going to change my mind with your unfounded opinions, and I'm not going to try to change yours!
So Schiavo claims. On what basis should he believed? His public behavior has been outrageous, the capper being the odious "message" he sent to the world and Terri's parents on Terri's gravestone. Who uses a gravestone to "get even" with in-laws? Confirmed every instinct I had about him...
Now he wants to get into politics? All I can say is the Democrats can have him. LOL.
"Ping from Virginia! Kilgore for Governor! And Michael Schaivo wants more pain. How delightful. =]"
Kaine won.
Yeah, Kilgore didn't promise any tax cuts. But Kaine was on the defensive on cultural issues, regardless. Never bragged about Michael's endorsement, did he?
FRegards....
"Terri had told her husband and others in the past that she wouldn't want to live brain damaged on artificial support."
I'm curious: which others besides Michael? One lady claims Michael told her he didn't know what Terri would want, but that was before he won the cash. After he won the cash, he suddenly remembered.
The above are facts, not my opinion. Doctors testified to these facts.
Everything in my post #42 is a fact, not my opinion.
So? When has that stopped the musical chair political hacks who show up in states to run for office? The ones we 'have' to vote for to 'win back the Senate'? The ones that haven't lived in a state or even if they did at one time haven't visited it for decades? I don't agree with Schiavo sticking his nose into Virginia politics but if Republican and Democrat politicians are going to do it to win a seat, why not private citizens?
Terri told Michael and two others. The judge believed their sworn testimony as providing "clear and convincing evidence" as to Terri's wishes.
Now, are you going to imply that the testimony of all three was a lie and the judge was conspiring with them?
From Judge Greer's order:
"Statements which Terri Schiavo made which do support the relief sought by her surrogate (Petitioner/Guardian) include statements to him prompted by her grandmother being in intensive care that if she was ever a burden she would not want to live like that. Additionally, statements made to Michael Schiavo which were prompted by something on television regarding people on life support that she would not want [a] life like that also reflect her intention in this particular situation."
"Also the statements she made in the presence of Scott Schiavo at the funeral luncheon for his grandmother that "if I ever go like that just let me go. Don't leave me there. I don't want to be kept alive on a machine" and to Joan Schiavo following a television movie in which a man following an accident was in a coma to the effect that she wanted it stated in her will that she would want the tubes and everything taken out if that happened to her are likewise reflective of this intent."
"The court specifically finds that these statements are Terri Schiavo's oral declarations concerning her intention as to what she would want done under the present circumstances and the testimony regarding such oral declarations is reliable, is creditable and rises to the level of clear and convincing evidence to this court."
Michael never forgot what Terri wanted. Do you believe that he really forgot, then suddenly remembered? More importantly, do you expect me to believe that?
Sure. And if he did, you'd then ask, "What's the hurry?" and complain that he should have given therapy a chance, Terri was making progress, he should run more tests, he should try different treatments, yada, yada, yada. The guy was damned no what what he did.
Like you said, in 1993 he had his money, all the money that he, personally, was ever going to see. He could have just walked away and let her parents take care of her. He didn't need to all of a sudden "invent" this thing about her wish not to live this way, then get two people and a judge to conspire with him. Who needs all that grief?
"They only step forward when he's got the cash."
Things were hunky-dorey with Michael and her family until he got the cash and refused to split it with them as they say he promised to do. He denied it. Then he became a "monster".
"Maybe the family should be 'RICO'ed, because it smacks of a family racketeering network."
I will NEVER forget what they did to Terri - letting her be starved and dehydrated to death.
Michael Schiavo's "family" stinks to high heaven.
"And if he did [claim earlier she wanted to be euthanized], you'd then ask, "What's the hurry?" and complain that he should have given therapy a chance, Terri was making progress, he should run more tests, he should try different treatments, yada, yada, yada. The guy was damned no what what he did."
Since we are talking about the 'husband' who failed to help her when he found her collapsed, I am, indeed, mistrustful of his motivations.
"Like you said, in 1993 he had his money, all the money that he, personally, was ever going to see. He could have just walked away and let her parents take care of her."
Odd, isn't it? Could it be that he feared she could be revived and say what happened to her? He lets her 'vegetate' for six years before saying she doesn't want to be vegetative, and then steps forward after allowing her to be tortured the very way she allegedly said she didn't want to be. Such 'love'.
"He didn't need to all of a sudden "invent" this thing about her wish not to live this way, then get two people and a judge to conspire with him. Who needs all that grief?"
Someone who attempts a murder would go through that much and more grief to keep a potential witness from reviving. While I do not know for certain he did attempt to murder her, there are a lot of nurses offering compelling evidence, as well as the Schindler family. That's why Mark Furhman wrote an entire book about it, and Furhman remains suspicious.
At this point, I could say, "See the hand. Tell it to Mark Furhman." But I don't mind twisting the verbal knife if you want more. TTYL.
--FRegards....
When Rush, Hannity, Savage, and Mark Furhman agree on something, one would think that it's a slam dunk. I can't help but wonder how many in the legal community worship legal proceedure above everything else. That same legal proceedure allowed the murder of 40 million unborn. I poke them in the eye every chance I get.
Perhaps you could be a little more specific here on "failed to help her"? This way I can respond.
"Could it be that he feared she could be revived and say what happened to her?"
Unlikely, in that the consensus in 1993/1994 was that she was in a PVS and that her cerebral cortex was mush. What did Michael fear -- what do you think happened to her?
"He lets her 'vegetate' for six years before saying she doesn't want to be vegetative."
Hindsight is, of course, 20/20, but how long should he have waited before giving up all hope? Again, I believe that if he acted sooner, you would have been all over him like white on rice.
"and then steps forward after allowing her to be tortured the very way she allegedly said she didn't want to be."
At some point, you give up hope. That point was six years for Michael. Maybe you'd "pull the plug" on your spouse sooner than that. Fine. I think it's an individual choice.
"While I do not know for certain he did attempt to murder her"
I don't even know for certain that OJ did it, but I don't let that stop me from saying I think he did. Do you think Michael attempted to murder Terri?
"there are a lot of nurses offering compelling evidence"
Wait a minute! Nurses are offering evidence? Gee, did the janitor have an opinion also? The nurses are saying that Michael attempted to murder Terri on the day of her "accident"? How would they know?
"That's why Mark Furhman wrote an entire book about it, and Furhman remains suspicious."
He's familiar with the Kennedy assassination and knows that conspiracy theories sell books. Was he on this case? Was he part of any official police investigation?
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/17/Tampabay/Schiavo_timeline_trou.shtml
Michael Schiavo has said he called 911 immediately after finding his wife collapsed on the floor of their home on Feb. 25, 1990. Though medical records indicate he called 911 about 5:40 a.m. that day, he told the Medical Examiner's Office recently that he found his wife about 4:30 a.m.
The detail fueled suspicions by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, that Michael Schiavo had some wicked connection to their daughter's collapse and may have delayed his call for help.
"I think this is a very troubling gap in time," Schindler attorney David Gibbs III said Wednesday. "Michael Schiavo needs to step forward and explain."
Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said if he did give a different time than previously, it was simply a mistake in recalling a detail of an event 15 years ago.
...
http://www.crisismagazine.com/book2.htm
"...The great problem with the Schiavo case, Fuhrman points out grimly, is that Terri Schiavo did not die on February 25, 1990, when she collapsed on the floor of her apartment from cardiorespiratory arrest. If she had, then Michael Schiavo would have been the prime suspect for the murder. The apartment would have been combed, Michael would have been well-grilled by several detectives, and a thorough and immediate autopsy on Terri would have revealed the exact cause of death.
But since there was no obvious evidence of a struggle in the Schiavo apartment and Terri pulled through, there was no investigation.As a veteran homicide detective, Fuhrman takes the reader on a gumshoe analysis of the evidence that still exists—both before, during, and years after the collapse—focusing especially on Terri’s husband, Michael. The result? Although Fuhrman obviously could not establish guilt, he is able to demonstrate that Michael Schiavo is a prime suspect in the mysterious collapse of his wife.
To begin with, Michael’s character is less than stellar. He was unemployed much of their marriage; Terri was the real breadwinner. Michael kept getting fired from or quitting his various low-esteem jobs. He had a terrible temper and hence trouble getting along with people. While it was Terri who brought in the money, Michael enjoyed buying expensive things. Yet if Terri spent a bit on herself, Michael became angry.
On the day before her collapse, Michael was red hot over Terri’s spending $80 at the hairdresser.Michael was no better at being a husband. Terri was overweight as a teenager, and no one had paid her court prior to Michael.
On the second date, Michael proposed, and Terri fell for a man she hardly knew, marrying him on November 10, 1984.
Discovering the real Michael after marriage was quite painful. Controlling to the point of absurdity, quick-tempered, and self-centered, Michael was a lousy catch. Her family would notice bruises on her arms and thighs. When they inquired about them, Terri would answer, “Michael and I were horsing around.”
One time, Suzanne Schindler, Terri’s sister, irked Michael with some remark. “Michael started to lunge toward me and I thought that he was going to punch me in the face…. My father had to step between us before he got to me.” Robert Schindler called Michael’s psychiatrist who told him, quite bluntly and frankly, that the next time it happened, they should immediately call the police.
Bobby Schindler, Terri’s brother, had a similar encounter. In the midst of a heated argument, “Michael got so upset that he suddenly snapped, and grabbed me by the throat and threw me down on the couch, had one hand around my neck and the other was in the air ready to punch me in the face.”As Fuhrman notes, Michael’s character prior to Terri’s collapse points directly to a hot-headed husband more than capable of domestic abuse.
From a detective’s viewpoint, the evidence is already stacked against him.Within half a decade, Terri was so miserable that she was seriously contemplating divorce, and speaking with friends about it, right up to the day before the “collapse.” Unfortunately, Michael Schiavo was the only witness of what happened that early morning when Terri almost died.Not surprisingly, Michael’s account of exactly what happened that fateful morning is contradictory and confused.
From the first, Michael has given multiple stories about what happened and when—not a good sign, remarks Fuhrman. Normally, an innocent person who finds a loved one in such dire straights has every detail seared into his mind. But not only does Michael have trouble getting the times straight, he can’t seem to remember whether Terri was lying face up or face down.
He maintained later on that he picked her up and cradled her, but paramedics found her lying face down. He also insisted that he called Bobby Schindler first (who lived in the same apartment building), but he actually called Terri’s father first, who lived about 20 minutes away.
There are other problems. Oddly, as a manager for McDonald’s, Michael would have been trained in CPR, yet he made no effort to revive Terri. Upon being questioned by police, he at first admitted to having a fight the day before, but later when he realized that his admission would cast suspicion on him, that fact was forgotten.Michael’s actions after the collapse, especially after he received more than a million dollars in a malpractice lawsuit against Terri’s doctor, only impugn him further.
While the money was designated for her care and rehabilitation, Michael immediately stopped all Terri’s care and began the long road of killing her by active neglect. He wouldn’t allow her antibiotics; he ordered that she never be taken outside and that her window blinds be kept closed; he would allow no therapy whatsoever. He wouldn’t permit her teeth to be brushed.
For Fuhrman the homicide detective, all this—both before and after the collapse—does not bespeak innocence on behalf of Florida’s Guardian of the Year, 2005. While he cannot establish Michael’s guilt, Fuhrman has gone a long way in providing the strongest suspicion that the Culture of Death is so entranced by the right to die, that it will even protect and praise the likes of Michael Schiavo to further its cause.
...
"Could it be that he feared she could be revived and say what happened to her? Unlikely, in that the consensus in 1993/1994 was that she was in a PVS and that her cerebral cortex was mush. What did Michael fear -- what do you think happened to her?"
Then how was she able to speak? I heard a tape [over the radio] of her speaking over the radio. Judge Greer was amazingly un-curious about that tape, which indicates to me that Judge Greer is a complete creep, and the other judges are more interested in judicial power than in the value of human life, which by the way, can also be seen in their rulings on partial birth abortion. The judicial system is so morally vacant, we may as well have cannibals behind the bench.
"I don't even know for certain that OJ did it, but I don't let that stop me from saying I think he did. Do you think Michael attempted to murder Terri?"
I think it's noteworthy that the US judicial system would give his words more weight than the words of the Schindlers. The US judicial system has the morals of a rabid dog, erring on the side of this suspicious character who wants her dead, rather than those who believe she can recover.
"Wait a minute! Nurses are offering evidence? Gee, did the janitor have an opinion also? The nurses are saying that Michael attempted to murder Terri on the day of her "accident"? How would they know?"
I happen to respect nurses quite a bit, especially ones who lost their jobs for crossing Michael. And BTW, I also respect janitors. Sticking with the facts, the nurses offer what I called 'compelling evidence'. No need to raise the bar on what I said. Are you sure you want to know what nurses said about Michael? It doesn't make him sound like a very nice guy.
You seem to think that Fuhrman is willing to assassinate Michael's character for a buck. Well guess what? Fuhrman knows the score. If he were able to somehow vindicate Michael Schiavo, he could have made a fortune. He could have been all over the TV route, promoted by Time Magazine, sold movie rights to Michael Moore, etc. But there's a problem with doing that. Fuhrman wants to be on the side of truth, so that he can be respected in years to come. So do I.
You are a piece of work. You don't believe Michael's sworn testimony in court about Terri not wanting to live like that (even though it was backed up by the sworn testimony of two others), but you believe some off-hand self-incriminating statement he made 15 years after the fact about the exact time he found his wife. Pretty selective, aren't you?
According to your link, "Bartlett said prosecutors will review records and transcripts to sort out the times."
Whoa! So, this isn't a done deal? This may have been some kind of mistake? Have the times now been "sorted out"? What's the conclusion? Look, you've got nothing here but innuendo and speculation -- but that's nothing new.
Wow! I read the excerpt and it's hard to believe this is the same guy who was recently awarded Guardian of the Year from the Florida State Guardianship Association. Golly gosh!
Tell me. Did you actually go out and buy Fuhrman's piece of sensationalist trash book? You did, didn't you!
"Then how was she able to speak? I heard a tape [over the radio] of her speaking over the radio."
Saying what, exactly? I never said she couldn't speak, though whatever came out of her mouth would have been gibberish -- thus explaining Judge Greer's disinterest. I'll ask you again, What did Michael fear -- what do you think happened to her?
"Sticking with the facts, the nurses offer what I called 'compelling evidence'."
Be that as it may, the autopsy negated their gossipy speculation.
"You seem to think that Fuhrman is willing to assassinate Michael's character for a buck."
You bet. You're willing to do it for free, so why wouldn't Fuhrman do it for money?
"If he were able to somehow vindicate Michael Schiavo, he could have made a fortune."
BWAHAHAHAHA! Michael is already vindicated in the eyes of the majority. It's only a small minority of tinfoil-wearing, conspiracy theory, pro-life fanatics who are convinced he's guilty of something, even if it's nothing more that having a character that's "less than stellar".
Neither Furhman nor God himself could write a book vindicating Michael in your eyes.
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