Posted on 10/20/2005 11:09:48 AM PDT by Millee
An Ellettsville family whose home is decorated for Halloween contacted police after someone placed on its porch a flier that suggests Halloween praises the devil.
Dalene Gully told Indianapolis television station WRTV that she took offense to the flier, which was placed outside her home by the House of Prayer Church of Bloomington.
"I started reading it, and I was very, very upset by it. I found it very accusatory and very threatening," Gully said.
The church's pastor, Larry Mitchell, said the people who left the flier would have preferred to talk with Gully, but she wasn't there.
Mitchell said the church didn't intend to upset the Gully family, but rather tell people that Halloween isn't harmless fun.
"Halloween is not fantasy," Mitchell said. "We're training up our children, and obviously this lady was trained up in this. Halloween seems like it is taking just as much prominence as Christmas."
The Gully family filed a complaint with the Ellettsville Police Department. The incident also prompted the family to install an alarm system at the home, the station reported.
"This is my home, and I like Halloween. If I want to decorate my home, I have every right to decorate my home," Gully said.
I wouldn't criticize you for being an athiest, I don't seek to evangelize anyone, which may be wrong, but I am flawed.
I agree that Halloween has Pagan roots, but then again, I have Pagan roots too, probably, as my ancestry is 100% Irish. As I said, I stress the good that my Church injected into this celebration. I allow my children to participate in a ritual I cherished as a child. Remembering all the crazy costumes and fun parties over the years brings a smile to my face. But no, as I was going through my "loot", I didn't whip out the Ouija board and commune with evil spirits. I think all this criticism of Halloween takes some of the innocence out of childhood.
With regard to poisoning my children's bodies with candy, my children rarely indulge in candy so it is a special treat. Neither of them are particularly fond of it, in fact, my son regularly starts handing out candy from his own bag when he returns to our home from making the rounds. But for a few Sour Punch or bubble gum, I routinely throw away most of the stuff. One year, they didn't even bring their bags, preferring just to accompany friends on the rounds. My church hosts "Trunk or Treat" which attracts hundreds of children and cars and insane amounts of candy. Trick or treating is a manifestation of neighborly hospitality in my neighborhood, as I was posting to another participant on this thread, we bring out tables and goodies and socialize during and after the trick or treating. Some of the neighbors "haunt" their garages. It's just fun--no disembowling of cats or conjuring evil spirits involved.
I think those who are attracted to evil would be so inclined the other 364 days of the year as well. Those who are committed to God will remain so all 365!
Now, I have a serious question for you: as an athiest, if you do not believe in the good (i.e. God) why do you believe in the evil (i.e. Satan)?
It is not what I am saying. You should not actively participate in the ritual. So you should not say the prescribed Jewish prayers for Rosh Hashanah during the celebration. By active joining the Jewish worship you join their religion At least is a branch deriving from the same trunk as Christian Faith is, by making the sacrifice to Hindu deity or actively playing a role in a pagan festival you go very far off.
I leave it to Him, whether He "has a problem with it".
See, then it would be okay to get upset. ;)
Unfortunately, religious fanatics don't get the message. They claim that they are not soliciting; they're just practicing their First-Amendment right to worship and proselytize.
In other words, how do you enforce your sign? Have you done any research on whether religious groups have ever been held accountable for ignoring "no solicitation" signs?
Since religious fanatics say that their right to knock on your door comes from God/Scriptures, they are not likely to be deterred by a homeowner getting a little upset. And in the court cases I've read, the courts usually side with the religious canvassers.
That's odd. If I don't want someone on my property, they are trespassing, so how can the court side with trespassers?
If only such a common-sense attitude could be applied to Halloween and other such issues...rather than devolving into a
"You're wrong!"
"No, YOU'RE wrong!"
Well, YOU'RE going to Hell!"
"You'll be there first!"
IIRC, the courts have defined what 'trespassing' is in this context. When canvassing, a religious proselytizer has the right to access your door if there is no fence around your property. If you have a fenced property, then a religious pamphleteer has the right to access your gate.
At least, that's the short version of the story. Exemptions may apply.
How ignorant are you? Easter is not "a pre-figuration " of Christ crucifiction. Passover IS when Yeshua was crucified and Passover can be as much a s a month different than easter. Passover is celebrated by the Jewish calender, not the Roman one. Passover is the "pre-figuration" of Yeshua
You really don't get it, do you? By your reasoning, as long as one is not "actively joining the worship," by, for example special prayers, it is OK. It would seem to me that dressing up small children in order to beg candy from the neighbors falls well below this line. There is not even any worship going on to join, active or not.
SD
The ones around here have.
They claim that they are not soliciting
They are. But the sign also says "no trespassing", which makes it a lot harder for them to claim some sort of loophole.
they're just practicing their First-Amendment right to worship and proselytize.
Their First Amendment rights are not applicible within my yard.
how do you enforce your sign?
By being someone they will learn not to ignore, the hard way if they prefer. The details largely depend on their behavior. If they're respectful and polite and claim to have not seen the sign, I point it out to them and politely but firmly inform them that they are trespassing and request for them to leave.
If they want to be less than polite and respectful or refuse to leave when I tell them, I become less than polite and respectful.
Have you done any research on whether religious groups have ever been held accountable for ignoring "no solicitation" signs?
No, but I know the Mormons (which are the most common solicitors in my area) are instructed by their church to respect them and so far they have.
Since religious fanatics say that their right to knock on your door comes from God/Scriptures, they are not likely to be deterred by a homeowner getting a little upset.
Well then they're going to learn that I don't really care what their God says. If they refuse to leave when I tell them to, they are going to have to deal with more than my being upset. I'll physically remove them myself if need be. If they resist they're just giving me a free chance to practice my aikido.
And in the court cases I've read, the courts usually side with the religious canvassers.
They'll learn its not a local court they have to fear.
Unfortunately there are a lot of people who *do* take the celebration of Halloween as a serious religious exercise.
And that is why I included pagans in my list of the deluded. Sure the 'neo-Druidic' Wiccans have created a coincident 'celebration' of a feebly revived Samhain, but that is not our American costume party. The children who beg for candy on the one occasion when mendicancy has social approval in America are no more participating in a Wiccan Samhain than were Christians who first kept the Feast of the Nativity participating in the (already neo-)pagan festival of Sol Invictus because the dates coincided, or Christians celebrating whichever day of Holy Week happens to coincide with Passover are celebrating the Jewish Pesach.
Thank you for your sympathy.
They did know, but they didn't have the tools to deal with the situation. I did talk to the youth pastor about it.
The way to handle it was for the youth pastor to ask the group who was going to visit my son this week and just be quiet until some brave kids volunteered.
I also grieve that the other kids in the youth group were denied an opportunity for spiritual growth through dealing with my son's suffering.
People are not born as hindus or anything else, so I assume what you mean is that people are born into all sorts of families, like hindu, taoist, etc.
People have been born into all kinds of families, now and throughout history.
Some have been born into starving familes, cannibal families, murderous families, head-hunter families, human sacrificing families, child-torturing families, etc.
Are you saying that since God allows something, He therefore must not have a problem with it? You may want to rethink your premise.
Your statement leads logically to 'since God allowed it, He must approve of it'. Most Christians would disagree, some other religions may agree with you. That is why it makes sense to compare.
I probably failed to make my point clearly. The issue is not whether religious canvassers will leave your property after you tell them to do so. The issue is whether religious canvassers will respect your sign and refrain from knocking on your door.
After the religious missionaries wake me up, the damage is already done. Of course, they will always leave after I tell them I'm not interested and shut the door on their faces.
Your 'no tresspassing/no soliciting' sign is a good idea, since most mainstream sects like the Mormons, and more recently, the Jehovah's Witnesses, are voluntarily honoring such signs.
Nevertheless, I'm not sure whether the 'no trespassing' sign legally prevents religious pamphleteers from knocking on your door. Is a delivery man 'trespassing' by knocking on your door to tell you about a package for you?
Now if your property is gated, then the religious pamphleteers should respect your 'no trespassing' sign. Nevertheless, they may leave a pamphlet on your gate or fence, and that seems to upset the woman in this article. [What a cry baby!]
Do you think that a 'no soliciting/no trespassing' sign will prevent a religious pamphleteer from leaving a flyer on your fence or door?
The last case I recall involving ‘no soliciting/no trespassing’ signs and religious pamphleteers was the federal lawsuit against Stratton’s ordinance :
Under the ordinance, residents of Stratton have the right to opt out of all or some solicitations through two means. First, they can post a "no solicitation" or "no trespassing" sign on their property. Residents can also fill out a "no solicitation" registration form at the office of the mayor.The US Supreme Court struck down the ordinance in Stratton. Jehovah’s Witnesses said they are protected by the First Amendment, and they don’t need to get permission from anyone to knock on doors, although they told the court that they usually honor the residents' wishes when 'no soliciting/no trespassing' signs are posted.
The SCOTUS has consistently sided with religious pamphleteers. For instance, in Murdock the SCOTUS wrote:
The hand distribution of religious tracts is an age-old form of missionary evangelism-as old as the history of printing presses. It has been a potent force in various religious movements down through the years. [, , ,]This form of religious activity occupies the same high estate under the First Amendment as do worship in the churches and preaching from the pulpits. It has the same claim to protection as the more orthodox and conventional exercises of religion. It also has the same claim as the others to the guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom
That's not what I said. I was referring to religion, not to bad behavior after one is born. If you beleive God puts souls into human babies, why would he put souls in babies that will be raised as pagans if he hates paganism so much? That was the question.
Christians aren't the only ones spreading these untrue tales. Urban legends of the "You better watch out because I heard that . . . " genre tend to spread by mouth in the general population. However, I believe Christians are the only ones spending money to produce and distribute publications, videos, and group activities to promote this falsehood. I'll change my belief when someone shows me an example of someone doing this while operating under a different banner.
I simply repeated your words and was and was pointing out the point you were trying to make, as revealed by your question and answer.
Your point is clear; and you are clearly saying that God allows it, so He must approve of it.
You were not speaking of 'how people behave after they are born'. Your statement had to do with what 'God' allows and His attitude toward what He allows.
You are saying that if God allows something (in this case He allows someone to be born into a family of a certain religion) then He must not have a problem with it, since He allowed it.
I was pointing out that God allows a lot of things He does not agree with so you cannot say that just because God allows something, He must approve of it, whether it is a religion or something else.
I already clarified the specific example I was referring to. But looks like you're still confused, so let me re-word ...
If you believe it's the power of God that sends you into this world, why would he set you up in a religion that he's against?
If you're an atheist or follow some other non-monotheistic religion, then disregard the question.
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