[gobucks]

85 Off-the-reservation Scientists who support the School Board ... and fear for the future of who decides what 'science' actually means.

This website seems to be the most comprehensive for getting to original court docs. Here's another.

Based on the cross links above, the fact that wikipedia.org seems a bit biased in favor of the legalists, and the fact that so much raw information is available, this may go down as the first 'virtual' trial, where anyone can obtain anything actually filed w/ the court.

In this case, a scientist who is a fellow at the Discovery Institute was the author of the study. Some of the 85 scientists are clearly from not well known schools.

But I would say most are just typical universities, excepting the scientist from Duke who signed this, and the two from Ohio State University - GoBucks! - who signed it as well.

I like the idea of scientists getting to decide what science means, and I'm betting J. Jones ultimately realizes that to find for the plaintiffs is to buy their arguments about the non-science of I.D.

Good Luck Judge. Hope that Bad Frog Beer experience helps out in this case. You may, just may be able to draw some wisdom from that well you know....

[gobucks]

ping

[popdonnelly]

Why is a judge incapable of determining what is science. Judges determine everything else - with the help of experts.

[Liberal Classic]

Conspicuous by its absence in the article or your post is the actual name of this "international group of scientists." For those interested, it is called the Discovery Institute.

[mmercier]

Did not Francis Bacon settle this issue @1620...?

Now we need "friend of the court" briefs and judges to maintain what is in and of itself an objective reality.

[taxesareforever]

An international group of scientists have filed a "friend of the court" brief with federal Judge John E. Jones III advising him

More intrusion by the international community. Don't they have their own countries to concern themselves about?

[Mark Felton]

" I like the idea of scientists getting to decide what science means"

Why? Most scientists are political. They must chase funds and will succumb to the whims of those bureacrats that dispense the funds that feeds their families.

Any scientist that a priori rules out the possibility of God is engaging in very poor science indeed.

If great scientists like Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein believed in God then who is anybody to say that God does not have the power or will to create life, or be involved in our everyday lives.

[Brilliant]

scientists request scientists, not Judges, to define "science"...

As long as they want a definition that won't hold up in court, that's fine.

[A. Pole]

The 24-page brief — carrying the names of 85 scientists in fields including chemistry, molecular biology, mathematics, neurological surgery and environmental science — states "the definition of science and the boundaries of science should be left to scientists to debate."

They are wrong. The question what science is belongs to the realm of philosophy. Scientists are competent in their proper fields, chemists know chemical substances, geologists know the rocks etc ... If they go beyond that, they go beyond science.

That is why science was created by the philosophers (inspired by the theology) and practiced by the scientists.

[wallcrawlr]

ping

Revelation 4:11Intelligent Design
See my profile for info

[shuckmaster]

a scientist who is a fellow at the Discovery Institute

I bet you wouldn't recognize an oxymoron if it bit you on the rear.

[Junior]

The CrevoSci Archive Just one of the many services of Darwin Central "The Conspiracy that Cares"

• PatrickHenry's famous List-O-Links

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

1. 2005-10-17 Cyborg cells sense humidity
2. 2005-10-17 Ichthyosaur bones found off U.K. coast
3. 2005-10-17 Intelligent Design is not Science (Kenneth Miller Speaks at Lehigh)
4. 2005-10-17 Jurassic Bark: Tree Thought Extinct Returned to the World
5. 2005-10-17 New Planetoid Discovery Sets Off Feud
6. 2005-10-17 Prof Speaks at 'Intelligent Design' Trial
7. 2005-10-17 "Scientists Back Dover - [85 scientists request scientists, not Judges, to define ""science""]"
8. 2005-10-17 Spitzer's Stunning Portrait of Andromeda
9. 2005-10-17 Supernova Storm Wiped Out Mammoths?
10. 2005-10-17 University separates itself from professor in Dover intelligent design suit
11. 2005-10-16 An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science
12. 2005-10-16 Bad Frog Beer to 'intelligent design'
13. 2005-10-16 Evolution debate unchanged over time
14. 2005-10-16 Grown Man in the Stellar Crib: Now What? (Discoveries require rewriting the Astronomy books)
15. 2005-10-16 Museums take up evolution challenge
16. 2005-10-16 "Museums take up evolution challenge (because ""biology classes have faltered"")"
17. 2005-10-16 Pa. professor [Behe] to testify in landmark case [Dover evolution trial, 16 Oct]
18. 2005-10-16 The Separation of the Church of Darwin and State
19. 2005-10-15 God and global warming
20. 2005-10-15 Tracing the whale’s trail [Evolution trial, daily thread for 15 Oct]
21. 2005-10-14 25 Questions to Ponder
22. 2005-10-14 Ancient Anthropoid Origins Discovered In Africa
23. 2005-10-14 Flea's giant leap for mankind
24. 2005-10-14 Is Homosexuality proof against evolution?
25. 2005-10-14 Science is the basis of public schooling
26. 2005-10-14 Scientists hit back at Dover video [Evolution trial, daily thread for 14 Oct]
27. 2005-10-14 Today's breaking news in the world of EVOLUTION
28. 2005-10-13 Crisis In The Cosmos?
29. 2005-10-13 Dark Matter: Invisible, Mysterious and Perhaps Nonexistent -
30. 2005-10-13 Dover players prepare for Supreme Court [Penna evolution trial]
31. 2005-10-13 Government Urged to Back Science Education
32. 2005-10-13 "INTELLIGENT DESIGN POLL (Gallup, via NRO: ""God Had No Part - 12%"")"
33. 2005-10-13 Mysterious 'half-animal, half-plant' marine microbe discovered by Japanese researchers
34. 2005-10-13 New finds of human ancestor jumble evolutionary puzzle
35. 2005-10-13 PJI Sues UC Berkeley for Using Federal Funding to Distort Religious Beliefs
36. 2005-10-12 Camden tool could be 5,000 years old
37. 2005-10-12 Can an Electron be in Two Places at the Same Time?
38. 2005-10-12 Challenge to Biological Evolution: Convergence
39. 2005-10-12 Dover science teacher testifies [Evolution trial, thread for 12 Oct]
40. 2005-10-12 Give Me That Old Time Evolution: A Response to the New Republic
41. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design 101: Short on science, long on snake oil
42. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design Debate Brews
43. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design? [...in California schools]
44. 2005-10-12 NASA Discovers Life's Building Blocks Are Common In Space

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CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of October:
 

2005-10-12 Alice au Wonderland 2003-10-09 antiRepublicrat 2004-10-10 Antonello 1998-10-18 AZLiberty 1999-10-14 blam 2000-10-19 cogitator 2001-10-21 Coyoteman 2004-10-26 curiosity 1998-10-29 Dataman 2000-10-29 dila813 2005-10-07 Dinobot

2001-10-14 dread78645 2005-10-14 EasyBOven 1998-10-03 Elsie 1998-10-17 f.Christian 2002-10-08 FairOpinion 2001-10-26 Genesis defender 2000-10-09 Gil4 2000-10-08 guitarist 2004-10-10 joeclarke 1998-10-03 js1138 2001-10-24 k2blader

2001-10-22 kanawa 2000-10-08 LibWhacker 2002-10-25 m1-lightning 2001-10-10 Michael_Michaelangelo 2001-10-09 Mother Abigail 2004-10-25 MRMEAN 2004-10-03 Nicholas Conradin 1999-10-28 PatrickHenry 1998-10-01 Physicist 2003-10-19 Pipeline 1998-10-25 plain talk

1998-10-12 Restorer 2005-10-04 ret_medic 2001-10-23 RightWingNilla 2005-10-08 SmoothTalker 2004-10-09 snarks_when_bored 1998-10-04 Southack 2002-10-22 sumocide 2004-10-21 WildHorseCrash 2001-10-23 yankeedame 2002-10-20 Z in Oregon 1998-10-29 zebra 2

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In Memoriam
Fallen CrevoSci Warriors:

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ALS Area Freeper Aric2000 Askel5 bluepistolero churchillbuff ConservababeJen DittoJed2 dob Ed Current

f.Christian followerofchrist general_re goodseedhomeschool gopwinsin04 gore3000 Jedigirl JesseShurun Kevin Curry kharaku

Le-Roy Marathon medved metacognative Modernman NoKinToMonkeys Ogmios peg the prophet Phaedrus Phoroneus

pickemuphere ret_medic RickyJ SeaLion Selkie Shubi Tomax tpaine WaveThatFlag xm177e2

Bring back Modernman and SeaLion!

The
official beer
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[RogueIsland]

An international group of scientists have filed a "friend of the court" brief with federal Judge John E. Jones III advising him that "the identification of intelligent causes is a well-established scientific practice" and asking him to allow "the freedom of scientists to pursue scientific evidence wherever it may lead."

I'm sorry but I cannot rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that would lead someone to conclude that any outcome of the Dover trial would affect "scientists'" ability to pursuse whatever research their hearts desired, funding and the derision of their colleagues notwithstanding.

[Elsie]

"Any (court) ruling that depends upon an outdated or inaccurate definition of science or which attempts to define the boundaries of science could hinder scientific progress," the brief states in asking Jones to find in favor of the Dover Area School Board.

How??

[From many - one.]

check later

[tongass kid]

Why is this trial necessary? I believe the answerer can be found in the students of the 1960s and their world view. Those students stayed in college and became long term students in order to avoid LBJ's war. They got their BS,MS and PHD. Those students now are division chairs and department heads holding fast to their world view, which I believe is unchristian . If evolution is correct then there is no need for a belief in a creator or law and life giver, and therefor law and life evolve according to the observers without any absolutes. Thanks for updating us on this trial.

[DoctorMichael]

"..............85 scientists.................."

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dis·in·gen·u·ous    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dsn-jny-s)
adj.

1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: “an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who... exemplified... the most disagreeable traits of his time” (David Cannadine).
2. Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.
3. Usage Problem. Unaware or uninformed; naive.

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disin·genu·ous·ly adv.
disin·genu·ous·ness n.

[JudgemAll]

Nope, not scientists after government funding, but consumers and entrepreneurs are the final testers in a product, and then judges can decide the safety standards too if it becomes an issue.

1. What do they mean "to let scientist decide" and pursue? I don't like science as a cult, though funding for fundamental sciences is necessary. This is mostly about government funding and we should keep such distorting power out of the sphere of education and science.

2. ID is really about engineering practicality and independent industry, whereas evolution is about science and fundamentals. As for using science to find morality and God, it's wrong, but scientist do it for their gods, and they also use morals and ethics to justify science and to denounce bogus science. So what is the problem here?