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Pa. professor [Behe] to testify in landmark case [Dover evolution trial, 16 Oct]
The Wichita Eagle ^
| 16 October 2005
| MICHAEL RUBINKAM
Posted on 10/16/2005 1:28:00 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Gumlegs
*** Mark still doesn't specify the creation of what.***
The "beginning of the creation" couldn't be more clear.
***why [would] God gave us brains and the ability to use them, and then covered the earth with false evidence.***
When God created Adam, He create a fully formed, mature male human - not an embryo. Would it be any surprise that He created the universe in a mature state?
***Are you saying here that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally? You must believe, then, that locusts have four legs****
For starters...
Leviticus 11:20-23 is discussing what types of locusts/grasshoppers are kosher/not kosher and may not/be eaten. Now, we all know that all insects have six legs, not four. Thus, the expression "that goes on all fours" is, in fact, a Hebrew idiom - the original Hebrew says: ha holekh al arba, literally "which goes on four".
The Torah in Vayikra/ Leviticus ch 11: verses 20-23 says: "Every flying insect that uses four legs for walking shall be avoided by you. The only flying insects with four
walking legs that you may eat are those which have knees extending above their feet, [using these longer legs] to hop on the ground. Among these you may only eatmembers of the red locust family, the yellow locust family, the spotted gray locust family and the white locust family. All other flying insects with four feet [for walking]
must be avoided by you."
The four types of locusts stated in the Torah are known according to Yemenitetradition to be the following: The "red locust" ["Arbeh" in Hebrew] is called "Grad" in
Arabic. The yellow locust ["Sa'lam" in Hebrew] is "Rashona" in Arabic. The spotted gray locust ["Chargol" in Hebrew] is "Chartziyiya" in Arabic. The white locust ["Chagav" in Hebrew] is called "Gandav" in Arabic.
According to Yemenite tradition as recorded in the work Arichat Hashulchan, the locust called "Al j'rad" is Kosher, and has three Kosher sub-species all known by that
name.
The Halachah/ Jewish Law regarding locusts is that one is allowed to eat a specific type of locust only if there is a "continuous tradition" that affirms that it is Kosher. It is
not enough that the locust seems to conform to the criteria mentioned in the Torah. This does not mean that one must possess a 'personal tradition' in order to eat
locusts. If one travels to a place where the people do have a tradition, the new arrival would also be allowed to eat them. Interestingly, the author of the Arichat Hashulchan
points out that locusts were never really considered a 'delicacy' -- rather they were generally food for the impoverished.
*** Oh, and you must also believe that bats and birds are the same thing.***
It may help clear things up to note that the Hebrew owph (rendered as "fowl" or "birds" usually) may be more precisely rendered as "flying things," in which case the references to "owph" which go on all fours = references to winged insects which use four limbs to walk.
The above identify insects which fit that description.
(Btw, the broadness of the word "owph" also explains how the bat is included in the list in Lev. 11:19.)
To: WildTurkey
Adam didn't 'know' Eve and Eve didn't conceive till Genesis 4, AFTER they were kicked out of the garden. The Bible says they had relations after being kicked out, but it doesn't say anything about what happened before. Maybe they had relations beforehand, and maybe they didn't. There's no way of knowing. Maybe Adam was rounding third when she brought him the apple.
However, we know that God intended for them to have relations before the fall.
242
posted on
10/16/2005 7:08:19 PM PDT
by
curiosity
(Cronyism is not conservative)
To: cornelis
Scientific rationalism also gives rise to horrific uses. The fact that our human experience gives evidence of evil is no small joke. What's your point? People who lust for power will use any means they can to get it.
243
posted on
10/16/2005 7:08:31 PM PDT
by
Gumlegs
To: connectthedots
["The fact that most biology texts act more as cheerleaders for Darwin's theory rather than trying to develop the critical faculties of their students shows the need, I think, for such statements," Behe said.] This pretty much sums up the defense case.
True, which is really pitiful, when you think about it.
244
posted on
10/16/2005 7:09:04 PM PDT
by
Ichneumon
(Certified pedantic coxcomb)
To: cornelis
Not of much use when the argument turns on specialized knowledge and skills.
245
posted on
10/16/2005 7:09:18 PM PDT
by
js1138
(Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
To: Gumlegs
***By nature, religion gives rise to horrific uses. Remember 9/11.***
Correction:
Any lie gives rise to horrific uses.
Like evolution or Islam.
To: curiosity
Uh...how is that proof? Even if they had marital relations at exactly the right time of the month, there's still a good chance she doesn't get pregnant. And the Bible doesn't say whether they had marital relations before the fall. Ah, the so if it isn't in the Bible, we are free to assume that it probably happened, event though Genesis 4 is the first mention that Adam knew Eve. Besides, Genesis 1 is a summary written much after the more historically correct Genesis 2, 3, 4, ...
Gensis 1 is to be taken only as an overall description of things that happened, not the sequence or order. Sort of like a forward to a book. Something to get you warmed up before you start the actual Bible in Genesis 2.
247
posted on
10/16/2005 7:10:10 PM PDT
by
WildTurkey
(When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
To: Ichneumon
"..what kind of Intelligent Designer(tm) would create a man first, by himself, then make him a bunch of animals to serve as his "helpers", and then only later create a woman as an afterthought when the animals didn't work out? How intelligent *is* that? And just what *were* the original plans for how Adam was to reproduce?" Who was it that said, "Ignorant, biblical illiterates can be cured with education - but stupid is forever"?
248
posted on
10/16/2005 7:10:47 PM PDT
by
Matchett-PI
( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
To: curiosity
The Bible says they had relations after being kicked out, but it doesn't say anything about what happened before. Maybe they had relations beforehand, and maybe they didn't. There's no way of knowing. Then anyone that leaps to the conclusion that they were sexual beforehand is just making something up, right?
249
posted on
10/16/2005 7:11:36 PM PDT
by
WildTurkey
(When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
To: Gumlegs
I think I'm pretty much making your point. We don't compare the horrors of a monarchy and democracy once we understand there's an anterior cause for evil called people.
To: Ichneumon; Matchett-PI
Don't you know, only the *specialists* can ever know what the Bible says, and the rest of us better just shut up and accept it. No matter how stupid the *specialist's* interpretations.
As far as I can tell, the only specialty that Matchett-PI has mastered is the art of the ad hominem and making up false quotes and attributing them to evolutionists.
251
posted on
10/16/2005 7:15:07 PM PDT
by
CarolinaGuitarman
("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
To: Gumlegs
Does your mommy know you're playing on the computer?
252
posted on
10/16/2005 7:16:29 PM PDT
by
Matchett-PI
( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
To: PetroniusMaximus
When God created Adam, He create a fully formed, mature male human Did Adam have a belly button?
Did Eve?
253
posted on
10/16/2005 7:16:58 PM PDT
by
narby
(Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
To: CarolinaGuitarman
*** Nonsense.****
It's not nonsense - look at my other posts for reference.
***that in NO way counts as evidence against the theory from a scientific standpoint.****
You can know a tree by it's fruit.
***And the fact the voices of the other creationists condemning him were deafening in the silence.***
Slavery is a complex issue historically in that some slaves had more money, authority and power then most free men. Some slaves were the tutors of kings. American slavery was an abomination.
To: curiosity
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Here is proof that Eve was asexual prior to the fall:
-----------------------------------------
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
255
posted on
10/16/2005 7:18:14 PM PDT
by
WildTurkey
(When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
To: PetroniusMaximus
When God created Adam, He create a fully formed, mature male human - not an embryo. Would it be any surprise that He created the universe in a mature state? Uh-huh. With fake fossils all positioned exactly where we'd expect to find them if life on earth had gone on for billions of years, stars light-years away already visible on earth, a Grand Canyon that could only have been formed over millennia, and no evidence whatever of a world-wide flood. Please.
That was an awful lot of interpretation to get four legs on locusts. I'm glad that Yeminite tradition clears the matter up -- to bad it's not actually, you know, right there in the Bible itself for people to read.
And it's interesting how God couldn't be troubled to tell His chosen people know something along the lines of "You might want to figure out different words for things like 'birds,' 'bats,' and certain types of insects which really aren't related at all, especially when you're writing down binding rules that your descendants are going to bash each other over the head with."
I suppose it's futile pointing out that Electromagnetic Theory, which is one of the main reasons you're able to post to the internet, is just as "atheistic" as the Theory of Evolution.
256
posted on
10/16/2005 7:20:22 PM PDT
by
Gumlegs
To: CarolinaGuitarman
As far as I can tell, the only specialty that Matchett-PI has mastered is the art of the ad hominem and making up false quotes and attributing them to evolutionists. That's all covered in CREO-101. Required before proceeding into the regular CREO curriculum. However, based on documented life experience of at least 25 FR posts containing a minimum of 14 lies of which at least one is not discovered by other FR'ers, you may be exemptet from the course.
257
posted on
10/16/2005 7:22:03 PM PDT
by
WildTurkey
(When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
To: PetroniusMaximus
Any lie gives rise to horrific uses. Like evolution or Islam.
Which one gave rise to the Inquisition?
Or are you one of those posters who's convinced it really wasn't all that bad?
258
posted on
10/16/2005 7:22:28 PM PDT
by
Gumlegs
To: PetroniusMaximus
Slavery is a complex issue historically in that some slaves had more money, authority and power then most free men. Some slaves were the tutors of kings. So as long as we follow the Roman model of slavery, and not the American, then slavery is fine?
259
posted on
10/16/2005 7:22:49 PM PDT
by
narby
(Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
To: WildTurkey
Then anyone that leaps to the conclusion that they were sexual beforehand is just making something up, right? No. Someone who leaps to the conclusion that they actually had realtions is making something up. However, it is clear in the text that they were capable of having relations.
260
posted on
10/16/2005 7:23:09 PM PDT
by
curiosity
(Cronyism is not conservative)
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