Posted on 10/15/2005 1:36:23 PM PDT by lizol
Russia upset about Estonian monument
Big News Network.com Friday 14th October, 2005 (UPI)
The Russian government released a statement Friday saying Estonia has mocked the memory of victims of fascism by restoring a monument to an SS legion.
The monument to Estonians who fought on the side of Germany during World War II was put up last year, but taken down after an international outcry, the Novosti news agency reported. The monument is now set to be dedicated Saturday with government officials present.
It is especially outrageous that this is happening in the year that marks 60 years since the end of World War II, the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement. A new attempt to glorify the Estonian SS legion shows that official Tallinn (the Estonian capital) continues to have a supportive attitude toward them. We believe that such an approach has no justification.
I was only going by what was mentioned in the article, and none of that was mentioned. Do you have further references on this?
That well may be. But these were not freedom fighters; these people were not like Vlasov's brigade that defected to the Germans and served in the German army. These people were SS --- guards in death camps and oppressors of their own people.
I don’t know wherever such historic revisionists like current Russian politicians has the right to protest…
That point is well taken: if I were a Russian official, I would be quiet, given Russian own history.
It is more interesting, however, that posters on this thread support going to any length, doing whatever immoral act, as long as it irritates the Russians. As if morality has not even visited them.
It's interesting, to say the least, to see this on the conservative board.
Ask an Estonian whether or not the Soviet Union should have been beaten.
Foreign waffen-SS units were not guards in death camps.
Not at all: these issues are simply disconnected. You are wrong but for a different reason.
Since you've spent most of this thread stirring up trouble and making unfounded accusations against your fellow posters, you're going to have to do a hell of a lot better than that.
Up until now, I always though of you as a devout, thoughtful Christian. Which to me implies a rather moral person.
And now you are telling me: perhaps, if you stop raping women, I'll stop doing so as well.
Except for simple cases, it is difficult to deduce in real life what constitutes a moral course of action. One ponders and reflects before making a decision. But if anything we know about morality is that third parties have nothing to do with it.
Do you really think, Joe, that what Russians --- or Americans, or Germans --- do or think matters for what Estonians should think about fascism? It is very sad to see you, of all people, making such a blunder.
I'm not Estonian.
I didn’t wrote that I support this idea. It is controversial as I stated above. Estonians joined Germans because they wanted to get rid of the Soviets. It is pact with devil against another devil. I blame them for the crimes which they committed but I don’t blame them because they fought the Soviets. Poland fought Soviets invaders too, so it is not wrong.
Dealing death against their nemesis at the time... Russia.
including numerous Estonians in death camps
Yes, a deal with a devil and some got burned.
It's somewhat like the honoring of General Robert E. Lee in the Southern United States. This sent a lot of Southerners to their deaths as well as brought the wrath of the North upon their cities. But the rebel flag still flies with the Stars and Bars. One can criticize this for being double minded, but the sentiment is clear.
Let's not forget the Frogs had their own contribution to the SS - the Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS Charlemagne
That will come as a relief to the hundreds of thousands Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians that were sent by cattle cars to the Gulags (slave camps) in Siberia to perish under subhuman conditions.
Poppa Joe Stalin was kind to your family, for whatever reason; not so to hundreds of thousands others and for that, they have earned the right to hate the Russians (Communists)!!!
No you did not; not is so many words. But you condoned.
It's like seeing a woman raped and expressing understanding of the rapist: his wife did not have enough sex with him, you see. That is what you did. You did not approve --- you condoned. So you can take that "gotcha" off the table.
and I see why they did it.
Yeh, more of the same. "You see, your honor, his wife only slept with him twice a week, and he needed it more often. Who would not rape under these circumstances. I can see why he did it."
Pathetic.
Also it doesn't seem to be offending people within Estonia itself. (Possibly because the Jews got nudged out of there early in the 1900s well before Nazism could wreak its hell upon them there. That's how my grandfather got to America, by the way.)
Ah, so only Jews may be offended? If Pol Pot was eliminating only his own people neither you nor I should find it abominable?
I don't think morality has ever been whitin a foot from you. Unless you yourself, your family or people are not victims you cannot find something immoral.
That it is shortsighted and wrong in other ways, is undeniable.
Amoral people always confuse morality with logic.
Possibly because the Jews got nudged out of there early in the 1900s well before Nazism could wreak its hell upon them there. That's how my grandfather got to America, by the way.)
You should inquire of death camps in Estonia, served mostly by Estonian guards. Your grandfather is lucky.
At the beginning of the article:
restoring a monument to an SS legion
You mean concentration camps?
All of Nazis Germany's extermination camps were located in Poland.
Estonians were not foreigners in Estonia. My rabbi was a survivor of a death camp in Estonia, and most of the guards were Estonians: some in SS uniform, some not.
Some SS were guards, some were only soldiers.
No, but you are certainly nuts. I was giving a parallel, showing that the logic of the argument was wrong.
Being Estonian had nothing to do with the issue, of course. Nor did I ever say that all Estonian were raping women. This is ridiculous, Joe.
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