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To: puroresu
Secularists aren't free thinkers, they're just influenced by things other than Christianity.

As generalizations go this is not bad. However, I would argue that secularism is better at promoting free thinking - independent thought - than religion.

This idea that secularists are particularly tolerant (they aren't) or uniquely rational (they most certainly aren't) is one of the most nonsensical fairy tales of our era.

Secularism doesn't rid humanity of its failing and certainly doesn't transform fools and cowards into wise men and heroes. But promoting free speech and free thought is better than the opposite.

Europe was once the heart of Christendom. As long as it was that, it could hold back Islam. But how can a secularized Europe do so? Secularism creates dysfunctional societies where living for the moment becomes paramount. The order of the day becomes reordering society to make it more "equal", less "unfair". Fighting "sexism" and "homophobia" becomes more important than bigoted concerns like guarding the border or preserving the culture.

A fantasized view of history. Religious societies have a terrible track record...and modern European society is doing quite well at holding back Islam...by transforming it. If you view American society as European (and it is) we're also doing a terrific job of conquering Islam militarily.

155 posted on 10/10/2005 8:50:25 AM PDT by liberallarry
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To: liberallarry

> A fantasized view of history.

Indeed. How did the Europeans hold back Islamic conquest? Well, one time, it was by magically causing the Mongols to invade Islamdom and trash the place. Another time it was by putting Dracula on the border and scaring the bejeebers out of the Turks by filling fields with impaled bodies. Neither of these is either replicable or particularly "Christian." And another time it was be sneakily allowing the Muslims to actually conquer much of western Europe and hold it for a few centuries...


156 posted on 10/10/2005 9:12:13 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: liberallarry

You do realize that freedom of speech arose in the West during an era you would no doubt describe as dominated by religious fanaticism.

Who is it that's passing speech codes? Christians or secularists? Who carried out the inquisition against Harvard's president over his innocent comments about gender? Not Christians. Who is passing laws to criminalize public or written disapproval of homosexuality? Sweden & Canada are. Are Sweden & Canada more or less secularized than America?

Check out the death stats from the last century, the most secular in history.

Religion can create repressive regimes, but doesn't always do so. No sooner do secularists take over, however, than they immediately head in the direction of repression.


157 posted on 10/10/2005 9:21:00 AM PDT by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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