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To: orionblamblam

####Based on what?#####

His own statements about driving superstition into the cupboard where it belongs. You can combine that with the behavior of societies that are further down the road toward secularism than we are (Europe & Canada), as well as the behavior of the secularist Democrats in the Senate.

Secularism of the Rushdie variety tends to create some pretty goofy and dysfunctional societies. Chesterton was right when he said people who stop believing in God don't believe in nothing...they believe in anything. This idea that secularists are particularly tolerant (they aren't) or uniquely rational (they most certainly aren't) is one of the most nonsensical fairy tales of our era.

I recall reading an article a few years ago on a referendum in Ireland on abortion. The pro-life side won. The writer of the article (pro-abortion, as are most journalists) blamed the pro-life victory on rural voters, whom he described as being under the influence of the Catholic Church. He noted that some precincts in the city of Dublin voted pro-abortion, since the "educated" city voters were less under church influence.

Of course, it never occurred to the journalist that those city voters were being influenced by something else. His attitude was that they were rational, free-thinking, independent minds who just coincidentally all came to the same conclusion that abortion should be legal. Of course that's nonsense. They were influenced by the liberal media, the liberal academic community, and even fashion magazines to vote the way they did.

Secularists aren't free thinkers, they're just influenced by things other than Christianity. This is why they usually end up all coming to the same conclusion. Anyone can easily see the herding or hiving behavior that Lawrence Auster has described as occurring among the secularist forces. It's the source of Political Correctness and some of the more preposterous views expounded today, particularly in more secularized parts of the world:

Gender doesn't exist, it's a sociological construction.

Homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality.

A new human life begins at birth, not conception.

-----

Only a secularized society would be "rational" enough to believe such ludicrous, and even unscientific, bilge.

Europe was once the heart of Christendom. As long as it was that, it could hold back Islam. But how can a secularized Europe do so? Secularism creates dysfunctional societies where living for the moment becomes paramount. The order of the day becomes reordering society to make it more "equal", less "unfair". Fighting "sexism" and "homophobia" becomes more important than bigoted concerns like guarding the border or preserving the culture. New taboos (tradition, homophobia, heterosexism), new superstitions (equality, atheism), and new priests (media figures, academic figures, political figures) replace the old. Only unlike the old, they aren't tested by time. They have no track record of success. One of the reasons liberal secularists call themselves "progressive" is because they've never succeeded in creating a single civilization. They hijack others and declare the values that created the civilization in the first place to be archaic and superstitious.

So with European Christianity dead, who can stand against Islam? Without a strong and functional Christianity, Europe has two options: Become Islamic or suppress all religion as the old Soviet Union once did.

In truth, secularism is just another faith. Instead of faith that there's something beyond man, it's faith that there's nothing beyond man. Chesterton was right.


152 posted on 10/10/2005 8:06:00 AM PDT by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: puroresu

> ####Based on what?#####

> His own statements about driving superstition into the cupboard where it belongs.

Your error here has been explained to you.


The rest of your broad-brush irrelevant and inaccurate generalizations snipped.


153 posted on 10/10/2005 8:28:58 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: puroresu
Secularists aren't free thinkers, they're just influenced by things other than Christianity.

As generalizations go this is not bad. However, I would argue that secularism is better at promoting free thinking - independent thought - than religion.

This idea that secularists are particularly tolerant (they aren't) or uniquely rational (they most certainly aren't) is one of the most nonsensical fairy tales of our era.

Secularism doesn't rid humanity of its failing and certainly doesn't transform fools and cowards into wise men and heroes. But promoting free speech and free thought is better than the opposite.

Europe was once the heart of Christendom. As long as it was that, it could hold back Islam. But how can a secularized Europe do so? Secularism creates dysfunctional societies where living for the moment becomes paramount. The order of the day becomes reordering society to make it more "equal", less "unfair". Fighting "sexism" and "homophobia" becomes more important than bigoted concerns like guarding the border or preserving the culture.

A fantasized view of history. Religious societies have a terrible track record...and modern European society is doing quite well at holding back Islam...by transforming it. If you view American society as European (and it is) we're also doing a terrific job of conquering Islam militarily.

155 posted on 10/10/2005 8:50:25 AM PDT by liberallarry
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