Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Cops fire 77 bullets at gunman
New York Daily News ^ | Sept. 29, 2005 | VERONIKA BELENKAYA and ALISON GENDAR

Posted on 09/30/2005 9:00:39 PM PDT by HolgerDansk

Firing 77 bullets, cops wounded an ex-con early yesterday after he shot at another man and turned his weapon on police outside a Manhattan housing project, authorities and witnesses said.[...]

Six officers from Manhattan's 23rd and 28th Precincts and an NYPD housing unit fired at least 77 rounds at Rooks in two bursts of gunfire, said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.[...]

(Excerpt) Read more at nydailynews.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; US: New York
KEYWORDS: banglist; dountwatch
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041 next last
To: Ramius

"Lemme guess... 9MM?

sure, you got 17 rounds in there... and you need every single damn one of them. :-)"

Could you expand this answer slightly for a non-gun guy? Are you disparaging 9 mm or just saying you need a lot of bullets but its OK?


21 posted on 09/30/2005 9:51:59 PM PDT by strategofr (What did happen to those 293 boxes of secret FBI files (esp on Senators) Hillary stole?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: strategofr

A 124 grain 9mm bullet might expand, but a 230 grain .45 acp bullet will never shrink. Ah yes, I really luv those caliber wars. (BTW, I own 9mm's and 45's)


22 posted on 09/30/2005 9:57:01 PM PDT by umgud (Comment removed by poster before moderator could get to it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: umgud

"A 124 grain 9mm bullet might expand, but a 230 grain .45 acp bullet will never shrink. Ah yes, I really luv those caliber wars. (BTW, I own 9mm's and 45's)"

Thanks.


23 posted on 09/30/2005 10:05:45 PM PDT by strategofr (What did happen to those 293 boxes of secret FBI files (esp on Senators) Hillary stole?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Peace Is Coming

How many shots would Dirty Harry have needed?


24 posted on 09/30/2005 10:11:16 PM PDT by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: strategofr
Could you expand this answer slightly for a non-gun guy? Are you disparaging 9 mm or just saying you need a lot of bullets but its OK?

No, its not OK to need a lot of bullets, and Yes, I am disparaging the 9mm as a law enforcement round.

What police need is a good reliable one-shot stop and the 9mm is not it. Lots of bullets flying around in public spaces is unacceptable.

The 9mm pistol was picked by NATO as a military round and in that context it makes a certain amount of sense. It is designed to wound, not to stop. In military contexts it is more effective to wound an enemy than to kill him. A wounded soldier requires support. It takes soldiers from the field to carry him away, and consumes resources to care for him.

None of this matters to police facing a lethal force situation. What matters to police is to fire the minimum number of rounds to make the situation threatless.

The .45ACP was designed to stop with one shot, center mass. It doesn't even have to be a very good shot. It is a large diameter, slow, and very heavy bullet. It tends to stop and expend all of its energy in the first few inches of the first thing it hits.

The 9mm is a lightweight fast bullet that tends to overpenetrate (pass through) soft materials and expend little of its (far lesser to begin with) energy in the first thing it hits.

The energy imparted on a target depends first on how much energy is carried in the bullet. Then it depends on how that energy is imparted to the target. The faster a bullet stops in a target, the more energy is transfered to the target in that time. If a bullet doesn't stop fast in the target, or passes through the target... then any remaining energy is of no value in stopping the target.

25 posted on 09/30/2005 10:28:10 PM PDT by Ramius (Buy blades for war fighters: freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net --> 800 knives and counting!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Peace Is Coming; ozzymandus
From the article:

Rooks, who was on parole for a robbery conviction, was hit in the hip, neck and shoulder in front of 5 E. 115th St. He was in stable condition yesterday at Harlem Hospital. No cops were wounded.

He was struck three times out of the reported 77 shots, for a hit rate of 3.8%, which does leave considerable room for improvement, even in a duress situation.

The article doesn't explain where the other 74 rounds ended up, but they all went somewhere other than the suspect, that much is certain.

Suffice it to say that if I, as a citizen license to carry a concealed pistol, were to perform in such a fashion, I would likely face revocation of my permit, and probably criminal charges and a civil suit on top of that.

The caliber of the pistols the police were using don't explain the failure to put 96% of the rounds on target.

If anything, it would be reasonable to expect greater accuracy from 9mm than from heavier rounds with more recoil.

But that's just an armchair assessment. I wasn't there, and I recognize the importance of that rather pivotal fact.

26 posted on 09/30/2005 10:40:50 PM PDT by Majic (Those who know the least pretend to know the most.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Ramius

---One or two hits center mass with a .45 or even a .357 would have ended the matter.

I'm not a big fan of the 9mm for law enforcement purposes.---

I just purchased a Glock 31C. That's a fullsize service pistol in 357 Sig, ported. It's designed to throw 125gr bullets at 1450fps, like a 357 Magnum, but with a 15 round capacity. I think it's state of the art for a combat pistol.


27 posted on 09/30/2005 10:54:05 PM PDT by claudiustg (Vote for one Democrat, vote for them all...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Ramius

shot placement...shot placement....shot placement

comes from

practice...practice....practice.

A .22 will do the job in the right hands.


28 posted on 09/30/2005 10:56:09 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: HolgerDansk
Firing 77 bullets, cops wounded an ex-con early yesterday after he shot at another man

Someone needs some lessons on how to hit what you are aiming at.

29 posted on 09/30/2005 10:58:51 PM PDT by Dustbunny (America is to great for small dreams --- Ronald Reagan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Majic

It's good to recognize that it is easy to armchair quarterback the situation on the ground. When really bad things happen... lots of best laid plans seem to waft away like a vapor. Heaven knows I've been in situations that I wouldn't want to have FR second-guessers on my case about, but it was the best I could do at the moment.

But you're also right that there just isn't any reason for massively ineffective fire. The whole concept of the "one" carefully placed shot seems to not even be taught anymore. I don't know what's up with that.


30 posted on 09/30/2005 11:00:59 PM PDT by Ramius (Buy blades for war fighters: freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net --> 800 knives and counting!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Ramius
"The 9mm...is designed to wound, not to stop."

That's a great argument to invest in "less-than-lethal" technology. I prefer criminals in jail rather than cops on trial (even for killing in self-defense).

Set phasers on stun.

or is it:

Set beebers on stune?
31 posted on 09/30/2005 11:05:57 PM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Ramius

I think there's enough of a disparity between shots fired and shots on target here that some criticism is warranted.

That said, I also know for a fact that my accuracy with a firearm would degrade rapidly if my target had already fired several shots at me, and I can't knock these guys for being scared.

I sure as hell would be.

But hey, that's what training and practice, practice, practice are for.

Here's hoping that every officer involved in this incident will find time to burn a few extra boxes of ammo at the range this weekend.

Meanwhile, for what it's worth, .40 S&W is a very fine cartridge for law enforcement work, as evidenced by the vast number of cops who carry pistols chambered in this cartridge -- which was designed specifically with terminal ballistics in mind.

I know there's a lot of buzz about the .45 ACP and the .45 GAP, but well, I'm looking at the numbers and not seeing a big difference.

Subjectively, the .45 has a nice thump to it, but I don't feel any less confident bringing a .40 to the party. Both do the job nicely, and a flat nose for mushrooming and energy transfer is part of the .40 S&W cartridge specification, which is nice.

The Glock 22, a full-sized service pistol chambered in .40 S&W, is one of the best-selling pistols for law enforcement in the U.S.

Unless I'm mistaken, the FBI Academy still issues Glock 22's or 23's (student's choice) to graduates, which says something.

Just sayin'. ;^)


32 posted on 09/30/2005 11:20:38 PM PDT by Majic (Those who know the least pretend to know the most.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: ozzymandus

he got hit 3 times it says. Geez.


33 posted on 09/30/2005 11:22:51 PM PDT by Cougar66
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Smokin' Joe
A .22 will do the job in the right hands.

Yes, it will. Though... in a stressful situation those would be particularly gifted hands. And you're also correct that shot placement just doesn't seem to be in the curriculum anymore.

But I wouldn't recommend the .22 for standard issue. :-)

I'll settle for a suitably powerful weapon, and people that are better trained to use it. Shouldn't be so much to ask.

I was just a mere Coastie doing boardings. But we spent week after week shooting competition IPPC targets. I was a trainer and a range officer... and worked the guys at the range sometimes twice a week. I did it for my own benefit. I didn't want somebody backing me up that couldn't shoot just as well or better than I could. We got them to do a double-tap pretty much by instinct.

Looking and merely thinking the bullet placement. No point, no aim, just think it. Practice, practice, practice. But have a proper bullet that will do something useful when it gets there. :-)

34 posted on 09/30/2005 11:31:49 PM PDT by Ramius (Buy blades for war fighters: freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net --> 800 knives and counting!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Majic

I used the .45ACP as an example merely because I know it. That's what I carried on duty, I've reloaded buttloads of it, and it's what I carry now in civilian life. I like it, and for good reason.

But that's not to say that there aren't lots of good alternatives. I too have heard good things about the .40S&W as well as the 10mm. I also still like my good and trusty .357 magnum revolver.

There's no one perfect all-purpose gun. But I do remember the title of my favorite Ruark big-game hunting book: Use Enough Gun. It doesn't have to be the biggest gun, it just has to be enough gun.

For anything but target practice... the 9mm just isn't enough gun. :-)


35 posted on 09/30/2005 11:47:58 PM PDT by Ramius (Buy blades for war fighters: freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net --> 800 knives and counting!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: HolgerDansk

These guys need instruction. If I fire 77 rounds at a target they'll have trouble scraping up enough DNA to determine what it was.


36 posted on 10/01/2005 12:13:21 AM PDT by KarinG1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dustbunny

"Someone needs some lessons on how to hit what you are aiming at."

Aiming? What makes you think they were aiming? If they fired 77 rounds with only three hits, they were just blasting away. This nonsense really ticks me off.


37 posted on 10/01/2005 6:12:36 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Ciexyz
I know what you're thinking: "Did he fire six shots, or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But, being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya punk?


Six
38 posted on 10/01/2005 6:32:06 AM PDT by DarkSavant (I touch myself at thoughts of flames)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: HolgerDansk
Is there a certain type bullet they have to use? What about hollow-points?
39 posted on 10/01/2005 6:37:43 AM PDT by wolfcreek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HolgerDansk

What’s with New York’s Finest and their really, really poor marksmanship?


40 posted on 10/01/2005 6:39:36 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson