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Biology expert testifies. Professor: Intelligent design is creationism.
York Dispatch ^ | 9/27/05 | Christina Kauffman

Posted on 09/27/2005 9:10:31 AM PDT by Crackingham

Dover Area School District's federal trial began yesterday in Harrisburg with talk ranging from divine intervention and the Boston Red Sox to aliens and bacterial flagellum. After about 10 months of waiting, the court case against the district and its board opened in Middle District Judge John E. Jones III's courtroom with statements from lawyers and several hours of expert testimony from biologist and Brown University professor Kenneth Miller.

On one side of the aisle, several plaintiffs packed themselves in wooden benches behind a row of attorneys from the American Civil Liberties Union, Pepper Hamilton LLC and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. On the other side of the aisle, nine school board members, only three of whom were on the board when it voted 6-3 to include a statement on intelligent design in biology classes, piled in behind lawyers from the Thomas More Law Center. Assistant superintendent Michael Baksa and superintendent Richard Nilsen shared a bench with Michael Behe, a Lehigh University professor expected to take the stand in defense of intelligent design.

SNIP

Miller, whose resume is several pages long and includes a stint as a professor at Harvard University, was the first witness called for the parents. Miller co-wrote the Prentice Hall textbook "Biology" with professor Joe Levine. The book is used by 35 percent of the high school students in the United States, Miller said. His were some of the thousands of biology books in which school officials in Cobb County, Ga., ordered stickers to be placed, warning that evolution is only a theory, "not a fact." Miller also testified in a lawsuit filed by Cobb County parents, and a judge later ordered that the stickers be removed.

Yesterday, the scientist's testimony was at times dominated by scientific terminology, though he jokingly told ACLU attorney Witold Walczak he would do his best to explain things in the layman's terms he uses with his mother.

Miller said intelligent design supporters think an intelligent designer must have been involved in the creation of life because science can't yet prove how everything evolved. He said the intelligent design idea that birds were created with beaks, feathers and wings and fish were born with fins is a creationist argument.

Intelligent design supporters often cite "irreducible complexity" in their research, he said. "Irreducible complexity" means that a living thing can't be reduced by any part or it won't work at all. So those living things could not have evolved in the way Darwin suggested; they had to be created with all of their existing parts, Miller said.

Intelligent design proponents often cite the bacterial flagellum, a bacterium with a tail that propels it, Miller said. Behe and his colleagues claim bacterial flagellum had to be created with all of its parts because it couldn't function if any of them were taken away, Miller testified. But scientists have proved that the bacterial flagellum can be reduced to a smaller being, a little organism that operates in a manner similar to a syringe, Miller said.

One of the biggest problems with the scientific viability of intelligent design is there is no way to experiment with the presence of a supernatural being because science only deals with the natural world and theories that are testable, Miller said.

Some people might suspect divine intervention last year when the Boston Red Sox came back to win the World Series after losing three games in a row to the New York Yankees in the playoffs. It may have been, but that's not science, he said. And intelligent design proponents haven't named the "intelligent being" behind their supposition, Miller said. They have suggested, among other things, that it could be aliens, he said. He said there is no evidence to prove intelligent design, so its proponents just try to poke holes in the theory of evolution.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; crevorepublic; enoughalready; lawsuit; makeitstop; scienceeducation; yourmomisanape
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To: TonyRo76

So basically your are saying the experiment in global genocide was a failure.


481 posted on 09/27/2005 8:16:39 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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Comment #482 Removed by Moderator

Comment #483 Removed by Moderator

Comment #484 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76
See my #479. The other stories/legends/myths were all corruptions of the actual history, rooted in fact but embellished into fiction.

But not yours!!

Think about it; if ancient legends had no factual basis whatsoever, why would early patriarchs have bothered handing them down? Were our earliest ancestor that starved for entertainment?

Am I dreaming? Are you seriously asking this?
485 posted on 09/27/2005 8:25:29 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas (Deity in training.)
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To: TonyRo76
No, actually it was righteous judgment rendered by a loving God Whom antediluvian humans managed to pi$$ off beyond the possibility of their own redemption!

If I were God, I would have just snapped my fingers and made everybody good again. But hey, different strokes for different folks. A flood leaves a more lasting impression I suppose.
486 posted on 09/27/2005 8:27:08 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas (Deity in training.)
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To: TonyRo76
» Why would there be hundreds of stories all over the world if only one family survived?

Because that one family had hundreds, then thousands, then millions of descendants.

Not everybody kept in touch after awhile (especially after the Babel incident and they could not longer speak to each other).

Babel was somewhere about 4200 years ago (from an earlier post on these threads).

What about all of the radiocarbon dates I have that are older? I must have a hundred or more that are older than 4200 years ago (it could be more, I haven't counted lately).

Can you explain these?

And please don't give me the "Answers in Genesis" stock answer on this subject, as that does not appear to apply. I am using nice clean pieces of marine shell, with no contamination (I think the "Answers" samples were contaminated). I am very careful in my sample collection.

What about the samples I have over 6,000 years? And over 8,000 years?

487 posted on 09/27/2005 8:27:48 PM PDT by Coyoteman (New tagline coming soon)
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To: TonyRo76

All those infants and fetuses were beyond redemption. Nice.


488 posted on 09/27/2005 8:29:02 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Coyoteman
What about the samples I have over 6,000 years? And over 8,000 years?

You're counting wrong. And using the wrong algebraic system. You need to be using the one that doesn't go above 6,000.
489 posted on 09/27/2005 8:29:43 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas (Deity in training.)
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To: TonyRo76
Don't you

No. But that's because I know what Jefferson couldn't have known, that the story of Noah is merely a recycled Babylonian myth. There was no global flood. Human genetics are incompatible with descent from a single family 4000 years ago. The duck billed platypus couldn't have swum all the way from Turkey to Australia. And no one but a daft fool could seriously believe any of this is the literal truth.

490 posted on 09/27/2005 8:29:56 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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Comment #491 Removed by Moderator

To: Vive ut Vivas
A flood leaves a more lasting impression I suppose.

But the geologic/archaeological history of most of the world does not support such a flood. You have a few cases of major floods, and that's it.

492 posted on 09/27/2005 8:31:56 PM PDT by Coyoteman (New tagline coming soon)
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To: Coyoteman
But the geologic/archaeological history of most of the world does not support such a flood.

Then the geologic/archaelogical history of the world is wrong. Duh.
493 posted on 09/27/2005 8:32:50 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas (Deity in training.)
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To: TonyRo76
Come to think of it, you must be a big fan of the UN! (i.e. the modern Babel)

Sure...whatever you say.

Uh, remind me not to stand too close to you in a thunderstorm! :-Þ

Why would God take you down along with me? You should stay close and enjoy the fireworks.
494 posted on 09/27/2005 8:36:26 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas (Deity in training.)
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Comment #495 Removed by Moderator

To: TonyRo76
Don't you realize we are the by-product of exploding nothingness.At one moment many many many eons ago
a particle of something or other exploded with a resounding whump ( my addition ) then huge masses of matter began rushing outward then like particles were drawn together ( by a mysterious force ) this is the same mysterious force which keeps electrons from skipping out on their neutrino centers which by all accounts they should since neutrinos don't generate gravity. Anyway its all self explanatory all sorts of complicated carbon compounds
encircle the earth and soon we have life and later more life
eventually there are plants and insects which help the plants reproduce then animals of all description and out of all that humanoids appear
Eventually though all these random particles will fly apart and everything will return to nothingness. Maybe someday the mystery force will
be identified, but a process called peer review might not let that happen. Anyway there is mountains of evidence I'm told that we all came from
complicated single cells which somehow had the DNA code for everything you see before you, Its all so clear and self explanatory you see.
496 posted on 09/27/2005 8:46:06 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tag-line under reconsideration)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Why would God take you down along with me?

Apparently the lesson to be learned from the story of Noah is that omnipotence is rather indiscriminate in its actions. Hey, the whole world got flooded because there were wicked men - by comparison, a believer or two getting caught in the cosmic bug zapper directed at you is no big deal ;)

497 posted on 09/27/2005 8:47:45 PM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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To: sr4402
Which do you choose?

Only if you are a New Age believer, is it about choosing your reality.

498 posted on 09/27/2005 8:48:32 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (I'm a CHOP (Chauvanistic Older Person) not a SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy)
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To: TonyRo76

Casting pearls before swine again ?


499 posted on 09/27/2005 8:54:25 PM PDT by claptrap (optional tag-line under reconsideration)
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To: tamalejoe

Experimenting and finding out that a 12 cylinder engine works better in a race car than an 8 cylinder engine didn't just "happen", either. A Designer was/is at work. The vile and weak evo theory is circling the drain, and a lot of the hoaxers know it - one reason they're getting so lathered up...


500 posted on 09/27/2005 8:56:48 PM PDT by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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