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Challenged by Creationists, Museums Answer Back
The New York Times ^ | 9/20/2005 | CORNELIA DEAN

Posted on 09/20/2005 7:02:45 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor

ITHACA, N.Y. - Lenore Durkee, a retired biology professor, was volunteering as a docent at the Museum of the Earth here when she was confronted by a group of seven or eight people, creationists eager to challenge the museum exhibitions on evolution.

They peppered Dr. Durkee with questions about everything from techniques for dating fossils to the second law of thermodynamics, their queries coming so thick and fast that she found it hard to reply.

After about 45 minutes, "I told them I needed to take a break," she recalled. "My mouth was dry."

That encounter and others like it provided the impetus for a training session here in August. Dr. Durkee and scores of other volunteers and staff members from the museum and elsewhere crowded into a meeting room to hear advice from the museum director, Warren D. Allmon, on ways to deal with visitors who reject settled precepts of science on religious grounds.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Colorado; US: Nebraska; US: New York; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: creationuts; crevolist; crevorepublic; enoughalready; evobots; evonuts; museum
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To: PatrickHenry
One is the darling of evolutionists, one is the champion of the creationists. Can you guess which is which?

If this is to be a beauty contest, then presumably it would be even more unfair (to the creationists) to bring Dawkins' wife into the discussion. I'll just go and dust off some of those old Dr Who episodes.

421 posted on 09/20/2005 11:53:02 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: DK Zimmerman
I'm going to state it again simply. I was responding to a question way upthread where I was asked how scientific displays could be presented without offending creationists, and I answered simply. It is still my answer.

Tell the truth. Don't say things are proven facts when they are not. Just tell the truth.

That's it.

422 posted on 09/20/2005 11:53:39 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: Just mythoughts
lol Is God didn't do it at the top of the list????

Let's parse this, shall we?

  1. "God didn't do it" tops the list of irreproduceable results
  2. This implies "God did it" is a reproduceable result

Okay. You've established the premise. How do you intend to test for God in such a way as to have the results reproduceable?

423 posted on 09/20/2005 11:55:03 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: DoctorMichael; Right Wing Professor
Hmmmmmmm.........The Ends justify the Means?

I was just pointing out what I thought their mindset was. I in no way advocated it - in fact I have been condemning it throughout this thread.

The sad part is that Christians do feel that serving a higher power does entitle them to divine protection. It can most often be seen outside of abortion clinics. It was also seen when Christians were sending their children in to get arrested during the Terri Shiavo ordeal.

424 posted on 09/20/2005 11:56:26 AM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: Thatcherite
You don't have to present anything about creation to be fair. Just don't lie.

Every scientific display I have ever seen in any museum anywhere refers to theories as historic fact. And that is fundamentally dishonest.

The museum is presenting its point of view.......it's opinion. It has the right to do so, as long as it is presented as such.

425 posted on 09/20/2005 11:57:48 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: JeffAtlanta
" But what you've posted is not evidence and is indeed faith."

Only to you it is faith. To me it is truth.

As I said, I know I cannot prove it to you or anybody else in scientific terms, any more than I can prove love exists. But it is revealed to me with absolute certainty.

I can only suggest you try it for yourself, but for that matter I cannot convert you or anybody to Christianity. Nobody can convert anybody to christianity. If they say they do then it is not true Christianity, it is merely charlatanism or confidnece peddling.

There is no doubt that charsimatic people can give great motivational lectures and make large numbers of people feel good about themselves. There is no doubt people like that may use Christianity or the Bible as a tool for their sales.

But true Christianity is a deeply personal matter. It is strictly between you and Christ, nobody else. But should the power of the Holy Spirit enter your being then you too will know the truth of the matter, and be very Blessed. (but you must first accept it )

426 posted on 09/20/2005 11:57:48 AM PDT by Mark Felton (Those who despise instruction despise their own soul...)
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To: Mark Felton
The behaviour of the ID supporters does not turn off people to id.

Wanna bet?

And again, belief in God is predicated on FAITH. Anyone who feels the need to masquerade their religious teachings as genuine science is a pitiable creature whose lack of faith is made obvious by their need to inject theology as the be-all, end-all of the discussion.

427 posted on 09/20/2005 11:57:56 AM PDT by Prime Choice (E=mc^3. Don't drink and derive.)
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Comment #428 Removed by Moderator

To: ohioWfan

You would have to define "proven facts" somewhere along the line. It sure appears that you hold to a signficantly different definition than most, if you deny anything that happens without your personal (or some human agent to be named at a later date?!) observation to be factual.


429 posted on 09/20/2005 11:58:56 AM PDT by DK Zimmerman
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Post 400. It's nicer than he usually is.....just pictures.

At least he didn't say we were all mentally retarded this time.....

430 posted on 09/20/2005 11:59:50 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: JeffAtlanta
".......I in no way advocated it - in fact I have been condemning it throughout this thread.........."

Agreed! Thanks.

431 posted on 09/20/2005 11:59:54 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!)
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To: DK Zimmerman
It's not just my personal observation that's missing. It's anyone's observation. Anyone's testing.

One of my ongoing observations of evolutionists is that you have a great deal of faith. This is yet another example.

It's fine that you have faith in scientists. But it's faith, not fact.

Now I'm really late for what I'm supposed to be doing. Back later.........maybe.

432 posted on 09/20/2005 12:03:03 PM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: ohioWfan
You don't have to present anything about creation to be fair. Just don't lie. Every scientific display I have ever seen in any museum anywhere refers to theories as historic fact. And that is fundamentally dishonest. The museum is presenting its point of view.......it's opinion. It has the right to do so, as long as it is presented as such.

OK, how about comments about the stars in a science museum. How do we know that they are not just lights in the sky a few billion miles away? No-one has been there to check. It's all just conjecture. Best put disclaimers over all the "inconceivably distant balls of gas" comments.

Pretty much all of scientific knowledge is inferred. No-one has ever seen an electron. No-one has travelled far out of the plane of the ecliptic to verify the apparent motion of the planets. etc etc etc.

The inferences and predictions in mainstream geology are at least as strong as any other scientific knowledge we have. Ask the oil companies. You don't find them employing the techniques of flood geology to find oil. (hint: that is because there aren't any)

433 posted on 09/20/2005 12:05:07 PM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: antiRepublicrat
They will be when the creationists bring forth supportable, meaningful scientific arguments.

The creationists say that the evolutionists do not bring forth supportable, meaningful scientific arguments.

I wasn't aware that not agreeing with the validity of an argument gave one carte blanche to be arrogant and rude. Apparently, you believe that it does.

434 posted on 09/20/2005 12:06:04 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: ohioWfan

Erosion can be tested, demonstrated, and observed. Even to you. It happens all around you, constantly, in a variety of ways and means. To deny the Grand Canyon formed by erosion isn't a matter of faith, but simple science and logic. You have to seriously fail to grasp one or the other concept to label it "faith."


435 posted on 09/20/2005 12:07:34 PM PDT by DK Zimmerman
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To: Junior
"Let's parse this, shall we?

"God didn't do it" tops the list of irreproduceable results
This implies "God did it" is a reproduceable result
Okay. You've established the premise. How do you intend to test for God in such a way as to have the results reproduceable?"

We must first establish a mutually acceptable method by which to perform said test. I use the Bible.
436 posted on 09/20/2005 12:08:26 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Mark Felton
But should the power of the Holy Spirit enter your being then you too will know the truth of the matter, and be very Blessed. (but you must first accept it )

Been there, done that.

But I was under the impression that I could read Genesis, and see a symbolic story written for uneducated people living in tents that roughly outlined what science believed about earth history and evolution.

But I was recently convinced that to accept Christ, I had to accept the apparent literal meaning of Genesis and other old testament books. That I can't do, because it becomes something closer to believing in Santa Claus than believing in truth.

So I've rejected God.

Although I still think that Christian philosophy and morals are a good model to live by. Which is why I hope that some smarter Christians come along and again teach what I was taught in the pre-Creation Scientist days, that there were no conflicts between the Bible and science.

437 posted on 09/20/2005 12:09:01 PM PDT by narby
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To: Just mythoughts
We must first establish a mutually acceptable method by which to perform said test. I use the Bible.

I'm game. How would you use the Bible to test "God did it?" Would it be the same method by which I could use the LoTR to show that Gandalf really did battle the Balrog on the bridge in Moria?

438 posted on 09/20/2005 12:13:56 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Just mythoughts
I use the Bible.

Science doesn't. Keep the Bible in Bible class and science in science class.

439 posted on 09/20/2005 12:14:43 PM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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To: Just mythoughts
I use the Bible.

Science doesn't. Keep the Bible in Bible class and science in science class.

440 posted on 09/20/2005 12:14:50 PM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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