Germany's Schroeder Refuses to Concede

Associated Press ^ | 9/18/05 | DAVID RISING

[jamese777]

The New Left Party won't be touched by Schroeder because they are his political enemies who deserted the SPD.

Merkel won't touch the New Left Party because they are mainly hard line far leftists. In the US it would be like Bush the Republican going into a coalition with the American Communist Party. It isn't going to happen.

[JRjr]

Probably buys his groceries at the nearest military commisary.

[bill1952]

That was one of the best postings that I have ever read anywhere.

[bill1952]

Probably something equivalent to cruel and unusual punishment.

[Ulysse]

Good news from Germany after election!
I'd prefer a clear victory for Mrs.Merkel BUT the fact is that FRANCE AND GERMANY the two "leaders" of the old Europe expecting to lead the whole Europe are in big crisis.The deutch society seems to be paralyzed...
Those two countries are also the most oposed to USA policy.
Then the strongest personality today in Europe is T.BLAIR,it's a big oportunity for UK,POLAND,NEDERLAND,scandinavian countries...

[Jim Noble]

It's just that equating Nazis with Social Democrats and even with Socialists is deeply insulting - and stupid too.

I'm not sure what you mean.

The romanticism of gemeineschaft was a big part of the national SOCIALIST party's appeal, and I assume that one important reason that the NSDAP is still banned 60 years after it's last legal meeting is the entirely reasonable fear that if it were permitted it would be popular.

[nosofar]

I've been self-employed over 20 years and, never unemployed.

You really don't have to defend yourself against any fool with a stupid accusation.

[death2tyrants]

I think it is unfair to assume this person doesn't have a job. The post history clearly indicates that this European has a steady job with the Internet Spelling Police and is generously volunteering to police the FR for spelling errors while trying to pretend that the Nazis weren't socialists. ;-)

[Red6]

Productivity and unemployment.

“88% of people in Germany are also quite busy, and statistically have a higher productivity per capita than US employees, so don't be so patronising.” You said.

Well, let me refer you to an official .gov UK site. Of course they are in collusion with the “Cowboy’s” cooking the books to show that America has such a high productivity. :)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=160

Fact is if you want I can give you DOZENS of credible sources that claim quiet the opposite of what you state. The productivity in the US is HIGHER than ANY European state. But that’s not all! Even if you look at the actual output per unit of time (Not GDP divided by employed labor force) in certain industries, the US beats nearly anyone out there.

On average the American works nearly 60 hours per year more than the average German. Less holidays and longer work weeks combined with less annual leave gives you nearly 1 ½ weeks of work more per employee per year.

More elderly or younger people are in the labor force where in Germany they are mandatory retired. More women are in the labor force as well.

Unemployment is at about 5.6% vs. 12% for Germany, which does cook the books to make it show better than it really is. Long term unemployed taking 1 Euro jobs ( http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1416143,00.html ) and in retraining programs are not counted in their unemployment statistic as certain other “exclusions” as well.

---

Socialism and the Germans.

http://www.spiegel.de/flash/0,5532,11922,00.html

Present day:

PDS (SED/DDR Nachfolger Partei) won OVER 35% of the votes in some former East German districts and raked in OVER 8.7% nationally!

The Greens over 8.1% nationally and filled such prominent positions as Secretary of State in the past.

The SPD (Of course they too are no “real” socialists by your definition, just in name- Soziale Partei Deutschland) took in over 34%

But there probably is no large following in this ideology in Germany. I’m just reading the situation all wrong?

History:

Karl Marx (A German and pretty much the founder of “Socialism”), starting the long tradition followed by many Western bourgeois liberals also came from Germany and was born to an upper class family. They have the luxury of thinking up such novel ideas as they live with their silver spoon in the mouth.

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/marx.html

(abstract) What exactly is the difference between Stalin and Hitler? Who was a Nazi and who a socialist? Where is the distinction in reality? Besides semantics, the ENDSTATE of the NAZI was the same thing as the Stalinist. The NAZI’s claimed to be socialists, but as noted in an earlier post, the defenders of socialism always make the same lame defense – They claim, “Oh, that wasn’t a real socialist state.” Yet they always fail to be able to give examples of true socialist states that worked in the long run, DESPITE over half the worlds population being subjected to this experiment over a millenniums time.

(concrete)

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/nazi/innenpolitik/kdf/

http://www.feldgrau.com/KdF.html

When do you think MOST of the social programs Germany has today started? It was under the NSDAP! In fact, after the war it was Adenauer who rolled them back. Kindergeld was a creation under the Reichsreform of 1934. Something still paid out today and seen as, “Ordentliche Sozial Politik.”

----The NAZI regime had a command driven economy as do all other socialist regimes.----

They STARTED the Kur programs which still persist in Germany today. The Soviets sent their “Hero’s of labor” to the Black Sea, the Germans to Kur in Bad Soden ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_durch_Freude ). The whole Kur system was created under the NSDAP. The Eastblock socialists had the “Junge Pioniere” the Nazi’s the “Hitler youth”. The fact that the NAZI’s prosecuted their opposition had nothing to do with them being polar opposites, rather that they were viewed as a threat to their power. Both in reality are similar.

The Germans subscribe to socialism. They see no danger in it. They see no bad in it. The last elecetions basically prove my point.

Red6

[Red6]

"Iraq and all these things are no real issue in germany anymore. Nobody really cares about Iraq including myself." You say

WRONG:

Schroeder made Iran into an issue in 2005. He even "Warned" the US of trying to solve the Iran issue with a military option. The SPD DID use the Iraq war in their election bid extensively in 2005 as well.

http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/2005/09/16/wahlkampf__pervers/wahlkampf__pervers__spd__usa.html

“i am sure you will present a link and showing some numbers i will do the same.
Do you know when Greece and Portugal joined the EU and so who should deny their right to travel?” You said

Most people in Greece and Portugal do not have the financial means to travel to Germany. They are overwhelmingly poor as a nation and tourism FROM Portugal is not common. Up until 1989 not many people from Bulgaria or Romania were allowed to travel to the US or anywhere in the West. Of course MOST of the former East block countries, while they are rapidly improving are also poor, and they too can not afford to have an average family travel to London. Let alone the US! Look at what an average Slovak makes, even today!

“I believe you make a lot of friends when you travel around the world and you must do that very often according to your knowledge of europe and europeans. Just stay as you are and keep your prejudices alive.” You say

I actually do make a lot of friends where ever I go. Of course the Germans on Ibiza on a drunken orgy, or in Thailand (On a Bumsflug) or elsewhere also make a lot of friends. Ask the Spanish tourism secretary. Of course the flourishing sex tourism in Jamaica from Germany is also overlooked. Yes, you make many friends too.

Yes, I will be back in your neck of the woods on 11 OCT 05. :)

Red6

[loveitor..]

Thanks Red6...I appreciate the facts and clarity of your posts, and the silence from Lord Haw Haw..I mean Ukman, is deafening.

[ukman]

First off, I must admit rather sheepishly that when I added that throwaway remark about productivity I didn't check my facts first. I'd already posted before I did a Google search and found that US productivity is indeed higher. Per capita productivity PER HOUR is also higher in the USA, but not by as much. However, I didn't then post a correction myself because of the advanced hour and because I fully expected to find this morning a raft of statistics to contradict me - and here it is. Thanks for your trouble. However, it's not really relevant to my argument anyway.

I accept that Americans work harder and longer hours, with less holidays, and that more elderly people and women are working in the US. Whether this is a good thing for your society is open to debate - but it's your country, after all. I have also never disputed that unemployment and excessive social programs are harmful to the German economy. Almost everyone here agrees this is the case.

You're absolutely correct that the Left party a.k.a. PDS a.k.a. SED raked in a lot of votes: about 25% in the old GDR and about a whacking 4.5% in the old FRG. The old GDR is a problem, of course. Over 85% of people in Germany overall voted for the established parties. So your point is...?

BTW , SPD means Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands. The CSU (slightly right of the CDU) means Christlich Soziale Union. You're getting the two mixed up, a harmless mistake.
CDU is the Christlich Demokratische Union. The two Nazi parties call themselves National Democrats and Republicans. What's in a name, eh?

As I said in my post, it's quite true that the Nazis lifted elements from socialist theory to get German workers on their side. Social security goes back to the Kaiser's and Bismarck's time (1880s I think)- those two were notorious Socialists. Helping the less well-off in this way was a German tradition, which not coincidentally helped defuse popular discontent with the elites in power although it didn't alway work, of course - as in 1919, 1932, 1953).

You're correct the Nazis had a command-driven economy. However, Germany under the SPD never did. Obviously not Socialists, then.

You keep on harping on that Germans are socialists = Nazis. I have no truck with either. Both the SPD and the CDU subscribe in varying degrees to the "social market economy" - i.e. the market operates without undue state interference, and the less fortunate get welfare so they're not reduced to crime or begging if they are handicapped or jobless or old. This isn't particularly controversial in Germany. In fact, you (still) have something like this in the USA, don't you?

Germans get irate of course about excessive benefits to wasters and about benefit fraud, and the govt. fights a constant battle to ensure that the undeserving don't sponge off the rest of us. Both the main parties are committed to cutting back social programs, it's only the details of these cutbacks that are at issue.

I'll say it once more and for the last time. Nobody here is defending socialism; but Germans do defend the social market economy, and they make a very sharp distinction between the two.

And also for the last time. Nazis are not socialists, whatever sources you quote to back up this ludricous assertion.

Right, back to work.

[ukman]

Have you got anything useful to add?

If not, toddle off and find a newspaper, and draw Hitler moustaches on photos of Democrats. That'll show 'em.

[ukman]

Just a quick thing: I concur with Stefan that nobody here is really interested in Iraq. IRAN cropped up once or twice, as you said (two different countries, BTW) and over in the east there was that distasteful poster, but frankly "it was the economy, stupid". I don't remember Iraq being mentioned in any speeches or campaign leaflets of any party.

[ukman]

>the entirely reasonable fear that if it were permitted it would be popular<

This is nonsense. The NSDAP's not-yet-banned successor parties (NPD, Republicans, DVU, whatever they call themselves) barely registered on the electoral scale.

[ukman]

ISP hereby certifies that your posting is free of orthographical errors. It refrains from any comment on the substance.

[stefan10]

If you read my post history carefully you will see that i wright two or three posts and that´s the best way to keep a language alive at least a little bit.

I can read interesting articles (reading skills) and if i wish i can try to improve my writing skills.

And i can learn a little bit about people.

It´s perfect.

You should visit a german spanish or french block but i remember americans are not really interested in learning other languages.
It´s a good investment and it is for free.
But if you want we can talk in german or french i am sure you are able to write and speak in many different languages.

[Red6]

Again your ignorance/arrogance is apparent.

MANY MANY Americans speak and write another language. Unlike Germany where it's highly structured, many Americans speak different languages. Spanish, which you list as a language we should learn is the most taught foreign language in the US.

Just because everyone in Germany goes through a cookie cutter education system where all end up with a similar structured education learning the same things does not make it any better. In the US we have a plethora of foreign languages that are taught, unlike Germany.

In fact, this is one of our strengths in reality. In one Battalion, 1-36IN we had Arab, German, French, lots of Spanish, Polish, Russian, Korean, Italian, French, Chinese, Philippino and other languages present. We took advantage of this in Iraq. Question, if the BW deployed to the Middle East, how many Arabic speakers “organic” to the unit would you have? How many Spanish speakers would you have that you could use in Columbia in counter narcotics operations? How Many people would the BW have that can speak the languages in Africa? We use this strength to our advantage every day.

Just because every American can’t speak German, does not make foreign language unimportant in the US. But I suggest you look around once and see how many DIFFERENT languages are spoken. German speakers? Yes there are some, but not that many.

Red6

[Red6]

Locust Capitalism and lists of US firms- Muntefering
US Caskets- SPD
Iran flap by Schroeder
and more

But sure, the political left didn't play the anti-American card. It's unimportant. Maybe to you it is unimportant, but then again, you probably don't represent the majority, as most Germans or even conservative Europeans in this forum.

Red6

[ukman]

Well, I think I have my ear close enough to the ground in Germany, almost as a neutral and dispassionate observer. Whether I'm right is something others will have to address.

The stuff you mentioned wasn't particularly important in the campaign.

Six in the evening, have to go.