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To: Quark2005

I agree with you here.

But what of the passages that are not OBVIOUS metaphors?

This is the point of contention.

Does one's belief in E color the way the look a Scripture, or ones belief in Scripture influence the way they look at the data from the Earth?


583 posted on 09/14/2005 6:01:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
But what of the passages that are not OBVIOUS metaphors?

This is where we obviously disagree. But as another poster pointed out, it appears (at least to a lot of people) that passages about the "Tree of Life" and the "Tree of Knowledge" are just as obviously metaphoric as the passages as I cited.

Does one's belief in E color the way the look a Scripture, or ones belief in Scripture influence the way they look at the data from the Earth?

Well, I don't see scientific theories as "beliefs" - they are hypotheses strongly supported by physical evidence. There was a time in history where a superliteral interpretation of Scripture did form the basis of inquiry of data, but it was abandoned because consistent, predictive models describing physical evidence could not be formed as a consequence.

The main problem that I (and the scientific community at large) have with "creation science" is the fact that it distorts evidence in blatantly false ways - with repeated statements like "evolution is forbidden by thermodynamics" or "evolution can not add new genetic information" or "there is physical evidence showing that dinosaurs and people lived together", which people who understand science know are simply wrong, and can demonstrate so. I don't fault the people who listen to these things (many of whom have no formal science education); I do fault the people who deliberately mislead others with these kinds of statements.

Theories such as biological evolution, the Big Bang, stellar evolution, plate tectonics, gradual sedimentation, etc. (all separate theories that are often misclassified together under the generic label of "evolution") are used and "believed" because they describe physical evidence with consistent and predictive models, that is all.

Does this color the way I look at Scripture? Only in the same regard that facts I see in everyday life influence the way I look at it (as in I know it's not a good idea to hate my family - this certainly "colors" the way I look at Luke 14:26-27). The fact is, there's just too much evidence supporting the aforementioned theories to just sweep under the rug; this would hardly be the honest behavior God would want, IMHO. I do believe the central theme to Christ's message was not to get hung up on the specifics of what, where, when and how in Scripture, but to take to heart the precepts behind it - as in the case where He and the apostles were gathering grain on the Sabbath; this angered the Pharisees, who adhered to the literal meaning of Scripture without thinking of what the purpose of the Sabbath was. Whether certain specific passages are literal or metaphorical is not the point - the point is how they speak to one's heart, mind and soul.

My personal belief in the meaning of the Creation account and the fall of man? I believe that the eating from the Tree of Knowledge symbolizes that once people became intelligent and chose to seek knowledge, we became aware of our mortality, and our newly found fear separated us from God - this was the "fall from grace" of our own making. It may have been specifically through one man named Adam that this originally happened, I don't really know. (Though if the story were exactly literal, wouldn't Jesus have said one man and one woman?) A reading of Genesis 4 does seem to imply there were other people around at the time, as when in verse 14 Cain worries that "whoever finds me will kill me". Anyway that's enough - this is only my personal take on the account anyway; I'm sure you've heard similar ideas before.

627 posted on 09/14/2005 9:09:24 AM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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To: Elsie
I agree with you here. But what of the passages that are not OBVIOUS metaphors? This is the point of contention. Does one's belief in E color the way the look a Scripture, or ones belief in Scripture influence the way they look at the data from the Earth?

Do you think the verse in Mat24 about the stars falling to earth is an obvious metaphor or not?

Do you think a 2nd century reader of Mat24 would have considered the same verse an obvious metaphor or not?

Clearly knowledge of the universe can affect which passages even you view as metaphor. You make that decision based on your a priori assumptions of what can possibly be fact. Prior to around 1700 it would have been perfectly plausible to imagine stars falling to earth and the verse would have been read literally. Daring to suggest that stars were incredibly distant/gigantic/numerous balls of gas would have been heresy, with the obvious rejoinder of scriptural authority. Now we know that the stars can't fall to earth, and the verse is read as a metaphor for angels descending to earth.

930 posted on 09/15/2005 10:15:19 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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