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To: PeaRidge
No, you just forgot the part about Major Anderson's secret withdrawl to Ft. Sumter

Was Anderson under obligation to announce all his plans? Sumter was under his command. He did his duty. His orders were to hold both forts, but when it became apparent that he could either hold Sumter or nothing, he moved to Sumter. Don't make it sound like some dastardly scheme. "Oh, the poor confederacy, so skillfully manuevered into firing on Ft. Sumter. Woe is me"

and the Union garrison's aiming of the UNION guns on the city of Charleston. And you forgot Major Anderson's threat to the people to use the guns to close down the harbor.

Who threatened who first? How many guns were trained on Sumter?

And you forget the direct warnings of both the Governor of South Carolina and the Confederate government that if any UNION military attempt was made to enter Charleston harbor, it would be taken as an act of war, and that self-defense would be initiated.

A pretty stupid position to take, in retrospect. Especially since it meant the south had to start shooting first.

That is from the log of Gustavus V. Fox who was leading the incursion and was in a position to see that the 'Nashville' had not "gone on her way". So, you can drop that contention from your bag of disinformation.

We've done this dance before. As the quote says, the ships off the bar "awaited the result of the bombardment". No captain of any merchant ship was going to sail into a harbor that was undergoing a bombardment. Why would they risk getting caught in a crossfire? You can't claim with any sort of a straight face that this constitutes evidence of a blockade. If anything, the south was blockading the harbor at that point.

We arrived off Charleston the 12th instant, at 3 a.m., and found only the Harriet Lane. Weather during the whole time a gale. At 7 a.m. the Pawnee arrived, and, according to his orders, Captain Rowan anchored twelve miles east of the light, to await the arrival of the Powhatan....

Typical use of ellipses by you to omit cogent facts. Here's the entirety of that paragraph:

"We arrived off Charleston the 12th instant, at 3 a.m., and found only the Harriet Lane. Weather during the whole trine a gale. At 7. a.m. the Pawnee arrived, and, according to his orders, Captain Rowan anchored twelve miles east of the light, to await the arrival of the Powhatan. I stood in with the Baltic to execute my orders by offering, in the first place, to carry provisions to Fort Sumter. Nearing the bar it was observed that war had commenced, and, therefore, the peaceful offer of provisions was void. "

Anything after that, including the seizure of the ice schooner (which was intended only as a means of running supplies into Sumter under the bombardment, not as way of denying southern planters ice for their juleps), came after "war had commenced."

“At once shut down every Southern port, destroy its commerce, and bring utter ruin on the Confederate States.”

Ah, so newspaper editorials are now to be considered evidence? Because I can post southern editorials talking about secession being necessary to preserve the institution of slavery all day long.

"We would therefore have at once to resort to income, poll, and every other sort of taxation, to keep up our present expensive machinery--not to speak of the conduct of an offensive war."

A statement that turns out to be utterly false. Tariff revenue in 1862 was the same as in 1859. In 1863 it was over $69 million and in 1864 it was $102 million, almost double what it had been in 1860. All that quote proves is that economic doomsayers have been with us forever. How many similar threads can I find on FR today?

Finally, the last in your long list of BS commentary.

No, not BS. Volunteers weren't enlisting to preserve tariff income or economically oppress the south. This is what they were responding to:


1,167 posted on 11/16/2005 11:02:03 AM PST by Heyworth
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To: Heyworth; PeaRidge
Tariff revenue in 1862 was the same as in 1859. In 1863 it was over $69 million and in 1864 it was $102 million, almost double what it had been in 1860. All that quote proves is that economic doomsayers have been with us forever.

I'm curious what your tariff revenue figures mean in terms of volume or value of imports in constant 1859 dollars. What if your import numbers were adjusted for the rate of wartime inflation and the effective tariff rates for those years?

This is what they were responding to: [an August 1861 meeting poster]

It has always amazed me that the old Northern calls for support of the Northern government, like your meeting poster, cite the Constitution and laws as though the North were on the side of the Constitution and the laws.

Before the War, Northern states flagrantly violated the Constitution over the issue of the return of escaped slaves. After the War started and before your August 1861 poster appeared, Lincoln violated the Constitution as follows:

Lincoln usurped the Constitutional power of Congress to raise and support armies and provide and maintain a navy

Lincoln usurped the power of Congress to declare war and regulate the ports

Lincoln usurped the power of Congress in suspending the writ of habeas corpus

Lincoln usurped the power of Congress to make and direct appropriations

Lincoln violated the Constitution with regard to searches and seizures

Lincoln abridged Constitutional freedom of speech in suppressing newspaper presses and arresting civilians for expressing political opinion

Lincoln violated the Constitution in arresting without civil processes citizens who were not subject to the rule of war

Lincoln's army had seized arms of private citizens on suspicion only and quartered soldiers in civilian houses without the consent of the owners

1,168 posted on 11/16/2005 1:56:47 PM PST by rustbucket
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To: Heyworth
Volunteers weren't enlisting to preserve tariff income or economically oppress the south.

Concurring bump. That town meeting poster speaks volumes about what the Northern people of that time were actually thinking about and responding to.

FWIW, I think this thread has also been useful in establishing that the South never paid more than 25-35% of the tariffs imposed on an annual basis.

1,173 posted on 11/17/2005 3:20:43 PM PST by mac_truck (Aide toi et dieu l’aidera)
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To: Heyworth
Was Anderson under obligation to announce all his plans? Sumter was under his command. He did his duty. His orders were to hold both forts, but when it became apparent that he could either hold Sumter or nothing, he moved to Sumter. Don't make it sound like some dastardly scheme. "Oh, the poor confederacy, so skillfully manuevered into firing on Ft. Sumter. Woe is me"

It's not the actions of Anderson which are in question. The fact is that when Anderson moved, Lincoln was furious. He had orders to hold both forts, dammit. As the official sacrificial lamb his chances for survival had improved beyond what was tolerable with the abandonment of Moultrie.

As the quote says, the ships off the bar "awaited the result of the bombardment".

What else were they to do? Run cover with the Powhatan and use the landing craft to aid Sumter? Oh yeah, where were the Powhatan and the landing craft? Who diverted them? By who's direct orders was the fleet crippled such that all they could do was sit off the bar and watch?

1,174 posted on 11/18/2005 3:34:00 AM PST by Gianni
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To: Heyworth; stand watie; 4CJ; rustbucket
All you supply is misdirection, straw man arguments, hyperbole, and your own bias. Why don't you supply some data?

On this one thread alone you have been shown that your bias on trade was wrong. You asked for data, and you were shown where to research it. You ignored it and ran off another bunny path. Then you were given the data you were too lazy to find. Then you want to argue consumption, then amounts of trade, then trade as a function of boats going into New Orleans as a misdirection for the data given you on Charleston.

Then you bug on about when the war started, and you were cited the government's declaration timeline.........then you want to argue against the clear fact that the Harriet Lane was the first to fire in Charleston Harbor.

You don't bring data, you bring posters. You don't quote information, you try to set up misdirection straw men and then try to discredit what you cannot find information to argue against.

You don't bring anything to these discussions. You merely try to argue through logical fallacies. That is boring, very boring.

Take your non-sequiturs, straw man red herrings, and illogical points and go to the library and bring us back some information worth discussion.
1,186 posted on 11/23/2005 1:51:57 PM PST by PeaRidge (non quis sed quid 'the message is clear; do not ask who says it; examine what is being said.')
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