Tiny Enceladus [a moon of Saturn] May Hold Ingredients of Life

UANews.org (University of Arizona ) ^ | 05 September 2005 | Lori Stiles

[ThinkDifferent]

Heh, good one. Although I expect in a few centuries we'll either be extinct or no longer meat.

[SeaLion]

We're somewhere on the edges of the relatively empty space between spiral arms. That's why our immediate stellar neighborhood isn't more heavily populated by stars.

Jeeezzz, now I find out! That sure ain't what the realtor told me!

[AntiGuv]

I'm pretty sure myself that Von Neumann probes are easy for advanced civilizations to make, but for what purpose? If it's to explore the galaxy, then we probably wouldn't even notice them zipping by. More importantly, unless they stuck around permanently, the odds would be low that one would've happened to visit in the past century, when we might have a decent chance of recognizing what it was, assuming we noticed it.

[notdownwidems]

but what about Uranus?

[AntiGuv]

The absence of Dyson spheres is easy to explain: they don't exist, because no one needs them. It's a rather crude solution to a problem (energy production) that we will probably solve more elegantly (fusion power) before we can even construct a Dyson sphere.

[vannrox]

THE NEBULAR THEORY OF PLANETARY ORIGINS

From start to finish, Morrison refused to acknowledge the distinction between fact and theory. Here are his precise words with respect to the origins of planets: "The planets in the solar system formed out of a spinning dust cloud, a circumstellar disk it's called, right along with the Sun, and so they all have the same basic motion coming from their origin, and they formed together with the Sun."

You can see he is confident in a theory that has been around for years, though the theory did not predict any of the milestone discoveries of the space age. The nebular theory is, in fact, one of the primary reasons why every major planetary discovery has come as a surprise. We can now view the planets up close and personal. Their surfaces do not speak for isolated and incremental evolution, but for an unstable solar system in the past.

The appeal of the nebular theory early in the twentieth century was based on observations later revealed to be incorrect. At that time, astronomers believed that only one galaxy, the Milky Way, existed. When they observed what they called "spiral nebulas" and "planetary nebulas," they imagined these clouds to be the birthplaces of stars and planets, formed by the "gravitational collapse" of gas and dust.

But the early "observations" proved to be erroneous. With better telescopes, astronomers realized that "spiral nebulas" were actually galaxies beyond the Milky Way. They could tell us nothing about an imagined "gravitational collapse" of clouds into stars and planets. Then, with still better observational tools in the latter decades of the twentieth century, it became clear that "planetary nebula" were not gas clouds coalescing or accreting into planets, but the remains of EXPLODING STARS.

Thanks to our better telescopes now, we DO see evidence of planetary formation. For example, the discovery of gas-giant planets orbiting nearby stars should have forced a complete review of the assumptions behind the nebular theory. But it did not. Most such bodies are moving on exceedingly close orbits to their primary (star), the opposite of what was predicted by "planetary nebula" models. Faced with this contradiction, the theorists concluded that the gas-giant planets must have moved inward after they were formed. But if that were a normal occurrence, then Jupiter should be closer to the Sun than Mercury, and Earth and its neighbors should not exist. Either way, the picture certainly does not suggest planets coalescing from a cloud, and then remaining in place for billions of years!

[Modernman]

Why does discussion of lifeforms on other planets bring out the C/E debaters?

It's an interesting question. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that life exists out there. Let's even go further and assume that such life is sentient.

You don't have to be a theologian to realize that such a discovery would shake the foundations of all of our major religions.

[Modernman]

I personally believe (and yes this is a belief) that life is replete throughout the universe.

What kind of life? Is it mostly germs or are there a lot of Klingons?

[furball4paws]

"Cool down in a couple of ways. One, ice. It melts. That takes heat."

First I don't know how much ice Ceres has, but the heat produced by friction as it enters the atmosphere will create a lot of heat. You may not get much here.

"Two, gets rid of the SO by the impact blowing it right off the planet."

You'll have to do a lot better here. Got some calculations?

"Three, it'll also set up a water cycle on a planet that currently doesn't have a lot with as much water as we have here on Earth. Water vapor clouds will block a bunch of the IR coming in from reaching the ground. That alone will reduce surface temps."

Now, I like this possibility. Is there enough water with Ceres? But even if the IR cannot penetrate water, it certainly doesn't penetrate Venus' current atmosphere. Boiled in aqueous acid is not good for life, even the extremophiles we find on Earth.

[furball4paws]

And why doesn't it photolyze in Venus' atmosphere? It must be made abiotically there, since we have no signs there is life as we know it on Venus.

Gasification processes are abiotic, but use bio stuff like coal and garbage as feed stocks. They produce hydrogen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and small amounts of carbonyl sulfide and carbon disulfide.

[furball4paws]

Happy Birthday from us at Darwin Central!

Most thought you were a hopeless case, but here's something from us to you that's harmless.

js1138 suggested this "tasteful" token of our thought.

http://mosquito.homeip.net/~zensoul/cgi-bin/embed.cgi?f=/collection/animated/Flash--Moon_Creature.exe

Unfortunately, Ichy wouldn't cough up his picture of a dinosaur giving birth to a dog. I think he's saving it for Armageddon.

[muir_redwoods]

"Intuitively I would expect so as well, but I don't have a good answer to the Fermi paradox. Do you?"

I have always wondered if we are not simply a rare species immune to the almost universally fatal effects of radio waves. Maybe every other intelligent species in the galaxy simply finds radio emissions to be dangerous or otherwise intolerable and avoids us like we would a nuclear waste dump or an open sewer.

[AntiGuv]

The question at hand is whether the carbonyl sulfide is itself a sign of life as we know it...

The presumption is that it does photolyze in Venus' atmosphere which is why its presence suggests an ongoing process, not past volcanism by example.

Coal, garbage, and feed stocks are regarded as unambiguous indicators of biological activity.

[furball4paws]

The process of its formation is abiotic. Hey, it's abiotic in volcanos.

[AntiGuv]

Venus doesn't have any active volcanos. ;p

Look! I'm not saying there's life on Venus. I just think we should take a glance.. Is that so wrong??

[furball4paws]

Absolutely not. I just think your reasons are a little thin.

[mlc9852]

Darwinists with a sense of humor! A sick sense of humor but more than I expected! Thanks.:)

[Dead Corpse]

Ceres has, supposedly, as much water as Earth does and is roughyl 960km in diameter. Anything that big hitting a small, rocky planet is gonna leave a huge impression. Depending on angle of incidence, Ceres may break up when it hits atmo. Especially if we just aim it and let it smack in. It'll be moving too fast for it to shed much mass on entry.

I'm not assuming an orbital insertion, then orbital decay to a drop. Just interplantary best speed and *SMACK*...

[AntiGuv]

It's not just the carbonyl sulfide. The article also notes the high concentration of water vapor in the stratosphere, the scarcity of carbon monoxide as if something's removing it, the presence of hydrogen sulfide and sulphur dioxide in proximity to one another, and the mysterious dark patches on ultraviolet images of the planet.

That is a heck of a lot more than we have going for Enceladus! And the Venusian stratosphere would be the easiest place (amongst the usual suspects) to collect a sample as well.

[djf]

I have heard that Sol is such a dwarf star, it would be almost invisible from Alpha Centauri.

I doubt we are very noticable, except for some radio chatter and nuclear blasts.