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Greek plane had 'many problems' (Unbelievable!)
News 24 , South Africa ^ | Sept 7, 2005 | unknown

Posted on 09/07/2005 11:51:55 AM PDT by zipper

Paris - A confusing series of alarm signals and the lack of an effective common language between its pilots doomed a Cypriot airliner that crashed near Athens last month, killing all 121 people on board, the daily International Herald Tribune said on Wednesday, quoting investigators.

An air system knob that had been incorrectly set during maintenance on the ground prevented the Helios Airways Boeing 737 from pressurising properly, but the crew failed to notice the problem during their preflight checks, people connected to the investigation told the newspaper.

Then, as the aircraft ascended through 3 000m, a pressurisation alarm - a device that can also warn of improper takeoff settings while the plane is on the ground - confused the pilots, who did not realize that the cabin was not pressurising, according to the cockpit voice recordings.

As the oxygen masks deployed while the plane continued to climb on autopilot another alarm sounded, further confusing the pilots, said the sources, who spoke on condition that they not be named.

Couldn't discuss problems

It was at this point that pilots realised they did not possess any shared language well enough to discuss complex technical problems, according to the report, which described the Cypriot co-pilot as young and inexperienced....

[snip]

(Excerpt) Read more at news24.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 737; airplane; airplanecrash; athens; boeing737; crash; cypriot; fubar; greece; greek; helios; heliosairways
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This is absolutely unbelievable. Not only did the pilots both fail to recognize the obvious signs of depressurization, both in its physical manifestations to their own bodies as they ascended and by the alerts/warnings in the aircraft, they were unable to communicate with each other due to language barriers.

The Captain actually left his seat to see what he could do about shutting off the altitude alarm!

I'd like to see an official representation of this report, because right now it's just unimaginable that a professionally trained crew from any nation could be so inept. I am dumbfounded.

Are there any Freepers with a 737 type rating that can explain what "air system knob" they are talking about that prevented the aircraft pressurization?

1 posted on 09/07/2005 11:51:59 AM PDT by zipper
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To: zipper
Are there any Freepers with a 737 type rating that can explain what "air system knob" they are talking about that prevented the aircraft pressurization?

I blew out an "air system knob" once, while on a date, but I haven't the foggiest vis-a-vis airliners.

Well, actually, it was on my date . . . . .

2 posted on 09/07/2005 11:56:28 AM PDT by Hank Rearden (Never allow anyone who could only get a government job attempt to tell you how to run your life.)
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To: zipper

You would think that professional pilots would recognize improper pressurization. Everyone uses technology as a crutch these days, and they dont' even use common sense because of it.


3 posted on 09/07/2005 11:56:37 AM PDT by z3n
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To: zipper

Cluster Foxtrot. That is all I can say on a family website...


4 posted on 09/07/2005 11:59:52 AM PDT by GreenLanternCorps ("Dude, you've got some... Arzt on you..." - Hugo "Hurley" Reyes)
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To: zipper

If an alarm is confusing the pilots, this sounds like a training problem.


5 posted on 09/07/2005 11:59:52 AM PDT by John Jorsett (scam never sleeps)
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To: zipper

These guys are pilots and they don't notice that their ears are popping? If they notice, they don't know what it means and don't take the plane off of its autopilot climb? And the reason the captain leaves the cockpit is just to turn off the alarm?

Wow.


6 posted on 09/07/2005 12:00:16 PM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: zipper
This horrendous story is exactly why I do not fly off-brand national airlines any more. The last time was in 1972. It was a DC-3 owned by the Honduran national airline.

There were live animals in the passenger section, and piles of coconuts in the pilots' cabin. The plane did land safely on the beach which was its destination, on Roatan, off the Honduran coast. And yes, I was (relatively) young and stupid at the time, and did not pay attention to the quality of the equipment or personnel on the plane. LOL.

Congressman Billybob

Latest column: "The Constitution is Finished: Not the US One, the Atlanta One"

7 posted on 09/07/2005 12:00:17 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (Mayor Nagin is personally responsible for 6 times the American deaths as the Iraq War.)
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To: zipper
Greek plane had 'many problems'

One of which was it had only one entrance...in the rear.

8 posted on 09/07/2005 12:04:48 PM PDT by Radioactive (I'm on the radio..so I'm radioactive)
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To: z3n
You're absolutely right. Many older (but not too old) doctors can detect problems better than average newly trained ones, because they have been trained to look out for symptoms with their physical senses harder than the newer generation ones, owing to the lack of semiconductor electronic medical equipment, which, although infinitely advantageous, has niche limitations.

A testament to this is the fact that tube-based amplifiers are better in audio quality than semiconductor amplifiers.
9 posted on 09/07/2005 12:05:53 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: zipper

I have been watching this story develop on the Greek Sat TV.

I think this story is dubious because all airline pilots are english speaking as part of their training. English is the language pilots.

I seriously question these "anonymous" sources. How many pilots would take off if an alarm is going off? Masks are poping out etc.

This story is dubious.

I have no doubt some kind of mechanical problem existed and no doubt there was pilot error involved. (just how well was that german substitute trained?) However I just can't see this kind of yellow journalism sensationalization.

(it is after all a french source...)


10 posted on 09/07/2005 12:14:23 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: All

People, you need to be careful who you fly with. Generally speaking, small airlines in third world countries are dangerous. Turboprops are more dangerous statistically, and generally the small turboprops have the more inexperienced pilots at the controls, and tend to have less ability to handle adverse conditions like icing, and less sophisticated radar for weather aviodance. And the new "RJ's" (regional jets), though more sophisticated than most turboprops, are nice, but still have the more inexperienced, low-paid pilots trying to build their hours, and have lots of turnover in their crew force. The multi-engine large jets from major airlines are the safest (as long as they aren't in bankruptcy anyway-- then maintenance suffers).

I saw an article in (I think it was) yesterday's Wall Street Journal about airline safety-- there's supposed to be a list airlines rated by IATA (International Air Transport Association) that submitted voluntarily to independent safety audits by IATA, about 50 airlines, I think. I'm looking for it online at www.IATA.org and haven't found anything yet.


11 posted on 09/07/2005 12:17:53 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: zipper
The Captain actually left his seat to see what he could do about shutting off the altitude alarm!

There’s an airliner crash story, the veracity of which I haven’t confirmed, of a pilot responding to the ground-proximity warning’s “Pull up, pull up!” with “Shut up, shut up!”

12 posted on 09/07/2005 12:21:22 PM PDT by dighton
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To: longtermmemmory; All

I am dumbfounded and skeptical too. But I just found a more detailed story on the International Herald Tribune site (the story I posted above quotes the IHT):

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/06/news/crash.php

Need to read this-- all the timeline events make sense to me, and like most airline crashes, a series of errors lead to the fatal outcome for all aboard.

Yes I know the IHT is now owned by the New York Times-- and I won't buy it when I'm overseas, because their editorial policy is so skewed-- but this is a different type of article that doesn't leave much room for political interpretation and most of the facts seem plausible, though the conduct of the crew seems unbelievable!


13 posted on 09/07/2005 12:26:31 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: zipper; Pukin Dog
Are there any Freepers with a 737 type rating that can explain what "air system knob" they are talking about that prevented the aircraft pressurization?

Perhaps PD can shed some light on this topic.

14 posted on 09/07/2005 12:27:52 PM PDT by Bob
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To: dighton

I can think of at several accidents like this off the top of my head-- the Agana, Guam Korean Air 747 a few years ago, and a C141 in which I think the crew was trying to change a light bulb in the landing gear indicator panel, not to mention just about every CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) accident that's ever happened-- and there are many.


15 posted on 09/07/2005 12:31:02 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: Bob

A little more detail from the Int'l Herald Tribune article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/06/news/crash.php

"Investigators pieced together the story of the crash from numerous sources. In the wreckage, they found the first solid clues - the pressurization valve and an air outflow valve set incorrectly. Air traffic control tapes provided information on the confusion in the cockpit."

[snip]

"The plane that crashed, a Boeing 737, underwent maintenance the night before. The maintenance crew apparently left a pressurization controller rotary knob out of place, according to the officials connected to the investigation, and the crew did not catch the mistake during preflight checks the next day. This meant that the plane could not pressurize."


16 posted on 09/07/2005 12:40:00 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: zipper
"The plane that crashed, a Boeing 737, underwent maintenance the night before. The maintenance crew apparently left a pressurization controller rotary knob out of place, according to the officials connected to the investigation, and the crew did not catch the mistake during preflight checks the next day. This meant that the plane could not pressurize."

<speculation>

IIRC, when Payne Stewart's plane had its cabin pressure failure, they talked about a 'bleed air valve' (or some similar term) being the cause. This may have been the control for that valve.

</speculation>

17 posted on 09/07/2005 12:45:39 PM PDT by Bob
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To: zipper

Greek plane had 'many problems'

1) Lavender scented body oil in coach instead of KY jelly.
2) Pilot's were not color coordinated.
3) Too many women on board, ugh.

</sarcasm>


18 posted on 09/07/2005 12:45:49 PM PDT by BlackRain
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To: All

The Wall Street Journal article I saw was pubished on 9/6/05. "The Middle Seat: Researching Your Airline's Safety Record"

Unfortunately I don't have an online subscription, and I threw the paper copy away.


19 posted on 09/07/2005 12:49:53 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: Bob

Exactly. I was thinking the same thing-- many similarities to the Payne Stewart crash, detailed below:

"But the wreckage could not help investigators determine why the pressurization system failed or whether the pilots received emergency oxygen. The valve that supplies pressurized air for the interior of the jet was found in a closed position, but the pilots could have closed it in an attempt to troubleshoot the problem, investigators said."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/06/news/crash.php


20 posted on 09/07/2005 12:54:09 PM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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