Posted on 09/06/2005 8:57:38 PM PDT by Uncle Joe Cannon
PENSACOLA, Fla.,Sept.6-Two Navy helicopter pilots and their crews returned from New Orleans on Aug. 30 expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety.
Instead, their superiors chided the pilots, Lt. David Shand and Lt. Matt Udkow, at a meeting the next morning for rescuing civilians when their assignment that day had been to deliver food and water to military installations along the Gulf Coast.
"I felt it was a great day because we resupplied the people we needed to and we rescued people, too," Lieutenant Udkow said. But the air operations commander at Pensacola Naval Air Station "reminded us that the logistical mission needed to be our area of focus."
The episode illustrates how the rescue effort in the days immediately after Hurricane Katrina had to compete with the military's other, more mundane logistical needs.
Only in recent days, after the federal response to the disaster has come to be seen as inadequate, have large numbers of troops and dozens of helicopters, trucks and other equipment been poured into to the effort. Early on, the military rescue operations were smaller, often depending on the initiative of individuals like Lieutenants Shand and Udkow.
The two lieutenants were each piloting a Navy H-3 helicopter - a type often used in rescue operations as well as transport and other missions - on that Tuesday afternoon, delivering emergency food, water and other supplies to Stennis Space Center, a federal facility near the Mississippi coast. The storm had cut off electricity and water to the center, and the two helicopters were supposed to drop their loads and return to Pensacola, their home base, said Cmdr. Michael Holdener, Pensacola's air operations chief.
"Their orders were to go and deliver water and parts and to come back," Commander Holdener said.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
"Naval helicopter ignores those needing evacuation from housetops!"
Yes! It's the Navy's fault!
And Bush's, of course.
"One that blindly follows orders, or risk your life"
Thank G@d you are not in charge of...or even in The Marine Corps. I would never know if I could trust you in a fire fight. You might think breaking a command over ruled the commanding office.
SEMPER FI.
How many soldiers are in prison for not following orders? I bet they far outnumber the Medal of Honor recipients.
You are to leave them there to die and go straight to your home base?
Don't know is the base under attack?
Exactly, and when a mission goes douth what do they blame? Bad intel. Well, these guys didn't ask for any intel hell they didn't even ask permission or tell anyone where they were. its not a good habit to start.
No good deed goes unpunished.
'So when successfully returning from a battle to take Hill Number 73, you stumble on dozens of hungry starving American GIs.
You are to leave them there to die and go straight to your home base?
Don't know is the base under attack?'
If the base is under attack, why would you return to it in a transport helo?
The failure here, AISI, is they apparently didn't notify base about their intentions. Getting put into hack is a normal Navy(USMC) response. If the pilots involved were the ones crying to the Times about their punishment, I got no sympathy. Being taken off the schedule is a common punishment. All the base wants to know is what is going on. Ops takes care of the mission reqmts, it's not the pilot's job.
I would have called in, made the case, and more than likely would have got to continue. If not, I might have bitched, but not to the press.
Good meaningful flight time is available during this time, I'd hate to have to sit it out over a failure to notify the boys making the calls at home.
Well, if these guys don't know how to use their communications
they wouldn't know.
I originally learned that phrase about the Jesuit approach to hard choices. At a Jesuit High School, of course!
But not from the Jesuits.
It has often come in handy.
: )
I hope things work out for you.
God Bless.
You sir, do not know what you are talking about.
The history of war fare are full of accounts of "leaders" issuing orders (from somewhere far removed from the battle) and other leaders too afraid to disobey costing 10 of thousands of lifes. Look at our own Civil War such as the battle of Gettysburg when Lee ordered Longstreet to attack, and it was way past time to retreat, and this battle was perhaps the beginning of the end for the South. Or, WWI for cases where troops blindly followed orders such as the Battle of the Somme that resulted in over a one million casualties, and achieved nothing. Tell tell me again how wrong I am.
There are times when men must fight and die to achive a larger purpose, and often the guy on the ground, the one that is asked to die does not always understand why, but to ask him to give his life for no purpose, is asking too much.
I have led men in battle (albeit at the lowest level possible, a Infantry Squad), and have disobeyed orders from wet behind the ear OCS Lt. who orders would have cost me and my men their life for no reason.
The key phrase is be prepared to pay the price for disobeying an order, and that is what I was prepared to do. The fact I was not punished (he had enough sense not to report the incident) means he could learn, which in time he did.
Again, the great strength of the American military is that it is not made up of unthinkng robots. The man on the front line can often see things those giving the orders can not. I will concede those in the back may know things those on the front line may not know, but that is why objectives are given, not necessarily instruction on how to achive those objectives.
The old Soviet Union was made up of soldiers that were instructed to follow orders regardless. I think I prefer our method to theirs.
'Well, if these guys don't know how to use their communications
they wouldn't know.'
Nice job, now the pilots were too stupid to use their comm gear. I'll make the assumption from now on that you don't know wtf you are talking about regarding things military.
To put it into perspective if the OUTCOME was anything ELSE but rescue there would be NO QUESTION that they should be reprimanded.
The UNDENIABLE truth in the MILITARY is to carry OUT LEGAL ORDERS because it is proven to save lives and achieve objectives and that individuals do NOT have the CHOICE of which LEGAL orders they obey and which they do NOT. Anything else would be a breakdown in discipline that will cause lives and jeapordize the mission.
Hopefully their punishments will not be too severe but more importantly I hope they LEARN they can NOT pick a choose which legal orders to obey.
More info is available at:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61658
Our consensus there is "he done good".
From your article:
'While refueling at a Coast Guard landing pad in early evening, Lieutenant Udkow said, he called Pensacola and received permission to continue rescues that evening. According to the pilots and other military officials, they rescued 110 people.
The next morning, though, the two crews were called to a meeting with Commander Holdener, who said he told them that while helping civilians was laudable, the lengthy rescue effort was an unacceptable diversion from their main mission of delivering supplies. With only two helicopters available at Pensacola to deliver supplies, the base did not have enough to allow pilots to go on prolonged search and rescue operations.'
Sounds like a nothing issue. Got clearance to continue and an ass-chewing when he got back. Sometimes it is best to shut up at that point, no matter how 'righteous' you were. You ain't getting no flight time at the kennel!
Yeah. A leftist stereotype turning up in the Times. Imagine that.
Under the circumstances, and given the Times's record in reporting on the military and well-known antipathy to those in uniform, I would not throw Holdener under one of Ray Nagin's buses just yet.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
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