Russia: Putin Calls For Withdrawal Timetable For Iraq

RFE/RL ^ | 19 August 2005 | Claire Bigg

[Tailgunner Joe]

President Vladimir Putin (file photo) (CTK) Russian President Vladimir Putin called yesterday for a timetable for pulling foreign troops out of Iraq. The Russian leader said many Iraqis view the foreign troops as "occupiers" and suggested the withdrawal will encourage insurgents to abandon violence in favor of contributing to the creation of the state. The United States was quick to reject his call, saying it is still too early for a pullout.

Moscow, 19 August 2005 (RFE/RL) -- Speaking to reporters in the Black Sea resort of Sochi after a meeting with Jordan’s King Abdullah, Putin first reiterated his call for an international conference on Iraq.

Putin disapproves of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and insists such a conference might help bring peace to the strife-torn country.

Then the Russian president went one step further. He said it is imperative to draw up a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq.

“We deem it necessary to work out a timetable for the gradual withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq," Putin said. "Many Iraqis, we know this well, still consider these forces to be occupiers."

Encouraging Iraqi insurgents to take part in their country’s political process, he added, is another argument in favor of a swift pullout.

“Resolving this task will enable a significant part of the armed Iraqi resistance to be brought into the process of creating a state," Putin said.

President George W. Bush has consistently rebuffed international calls to set a schedule for withdrawing the 138,000 U.S. troops from Iraq. Putin's plea was no exception.

A few hours after the Russian president's statement, U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told a news briefing in Washington that Iraq was not yet ready for a withdrawal of foreign troops.

"I think [U.S.] President [George W.] Bush has spoken very clearly on our views on the issue of security assistance to the Iraqis," McCormack said. "As Iraqis stand up [increase] their capabilities, we and the multinational forces will be able to stand down [withdraw]."

McCormack also suggested the United States had little intention to hold an international conference on Iraq by the end of the year, as Putin proposed.

"We did, recently, have an international conference that was organized in Brussels, which had great attendance from around the world, from around the region, from Europe -- there was a delegation from Russia there, I believe, as well -- in which countries came together to express support for Iraq," McCormack said.

Putin has openly opposed the Iraq war. But this is the first time he has made such a clear-cut statement on the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq.

Putin’s statement comes just days after Russia carried out military exercises in the Barents Sea during which new intercontinental ballistic missiles were tested.

Yevgenii Volk, a political analyst and the director of Moscow's Heritage Foundation think thank, said both events indicate Putin might be trying to gain more influence in world affairs by flexing his country's military muscle.

“It is significant that the declaration was made directly after the Northern Fleet’s military exercises where, whatever people might say, scenarios of an atomic war with the U.S. were developed," Volk said. "This [declaration] is clearly a display of strength, and Putin is showing that Russia’s military power must and can translate into the strengthening of its political influence, no matter where the area of conflict is located.”

Russia and China also launched unprecedented joint military exercises yesterday amid U.S. concerns that the two giants might form a military alliance.

[MarMema]

It doesn't look like anyone else went crying to the mods after all.
I am confused.

Did you just lie deliberately about your own action?

[Quinotto]

Let me tell you of this little thing the forum has which is profile information. There was no surprise to me to see that you have Russian links. So unless you have something of value to say to me, I advise to drop the "band of brothers" routine, it's too transparent. I never made my service duty an issue but then you would have known that if you actually read the posts :) and not throw yourself into the pudding, foolishly. And as far as going to the moderators, again, read the posts, some were removed, the last one, written by me removed at my own request simply because this has gone overboard. If you really want to start something up, go ahead, be my guest, but you will be having the conversation all by yourself. I said all I had to say to Gary, he decides what he's going to do from now on.

[Quinotto]

Gary, with the risk of repeating myself, I already told you all I had to say about this matter, I never doubted that you served in Nam (your age makes sense), my questions were pertained to a different matter all together, a matter which I decided to drop it not because I was convinced but because it has gotten out of hand on both sides.

[GarySpFc]

The debate did get out of hand, but I am very pleased to see some of these differences put aside.

[Quinotto]

As am I :)

[iva]

http://www.polska.ru/polska/geografia/demografia.html

seems for poles it's a great pleasure:
http://inosmi.ru/translation/221719.html
dreams to come true

here is what russians think about this article
http://inosmi.ru/forum/themes/viewthread?thread=4091&offset=0

[spanalot]

"The debate did get out of hand"

Kerry got three medals and I am not sure what conclusions we are to draw from Gary's experience.

What I can conclude is that he supports the Kremlin, he has a business importing Russian wives, and as such we can hardly count on him to be impartial in any issue involving THE USA and Russia.

He says he never stopped fighting communism but Byelorusse is communist and Putin is propping up that regime.

For Gary to support the Russians is a bit like supporting the SS if they had holed up in Austria after the war.

"One life, one kopec " is an old Russian saying and it relates the cultural disdain Russians have for life.

Why they and Gary and others here flock to the new authoritarianism is a PATHETIC regression that harks back to the last century when the Russians and their agents killed 100 million.

Am I shocked that Putin risked killing every hostage in boondoggeled attempts to kill the terrorists in Moscow and Beslan?

NO - because they retain the marxist/relativist ideal that the means justifies the end.

Tell me Gary, if Russia is so great with their "flat tax" and "free markets", why aren't you exporting HUSBANDS to MOSCOW instead of RUSSIAN WIVES to the USA?

[GarySpFc]

What I can conclude is that he supports the Kremlin, he has a business importing Russian wives, and as such we can hardly count on him to be impartial in any issue involving THE USA and Russia.

How perfectly anti-American of you to make such a comment. America does not need or want bigots like yourself here. My wife is a Patrick Henry American. She was naturalized 5/27 of this year, and for months prior to being sworn in she went around saying, "Just give me liberty or give me death." Everyone loves my wife. We applied to bring my stepdaughter here in 2002, but it will take approximately 9 years for her to get here. In the interim she cannot even come for a visit. I suspect you are rejoicing at that, but then according to your view Russians don't love their children.

I do not view Putin as perfect, but he is the best leader Russia has had in well over 100 years. He is moving the Russian government slowly toward more democratic reforms, while at the same time remaining a strong leader, which Russia needs to deal with the many problems she possesses. It took America hundreds of years to arrive where she is today, and Russia is a baby learning to walk, but she is trying.

I do not support the Kremlin or communism. I do however know that you are a baldfaced liar in stating Russia and Putin are still communist. That simply is not true, and it is especial black hearted to label all Russians communists. America does not want bigots like yourself living here, and I will only be too happy to report your name to the BCIS and State Department. Please quit hiding and let me have your full name and address?

He says he never stopped fighting communism but Byelorusse is communist and Putin is propping up that regime.

You have a hole in your logic, but then what else is new. I am very much against the government of Belarus and think Aleksandr Lukashenko is a dictator and thug. Putin and Lukashenko cannot even stand each other, however, they both know it would be in the best interest of the two countries to merge. Lukashenko wants to be God and president of both for life, and Russia will never allow that to happen. Additionally, when you have a thug as a neighbor it is only natural to make the best of a bad situation. That said, Russia does not run rough shod over Belarus, but your hatred blinds you to that.

Why they and Gary and others here flock to the new authoritarianism is a PATHETIC regression that harks back to the last century when the Russians and their agents killed 100 million.

You would fit in perfectly at a Ku Klux Klan meeting. It's one thing to hate communism, and another completely different thing to hate communism. A bigot is a sorry excuse for a human being, and there are few things Americans hate worse. Once again you prove to the world your hatred for a race and not an ideology. Your views are very similar to the Nazis.

Am I shocked that Putin risked killing every hostage in boondoggeled attempts to kill the terrorists in Moscow and Beslan?

Okay, this time I am going to attempt to speak softly with you. I happen to know how difficult it was to rescue the hostages, because that is one of the things I was trained to do. The school at Beslan was surrounded by the Spetsnaz. The Muslim terrorists had bombs set up in the school above the hostages, and one false move from the government would have resulted in the bombs being set off. The government was attempting to neogogate with the terrorists. Unfortunately, one of the bombs suspended from a basketball goal fell and went off. The Russian Spetsnaz and police had no other option at that time other than to storm the school. Adding to the confusion were many armed parents rushing to the scene mistakingly shoot several Spetsnaz and police in the back.

Why am I not surprised at your hatred at the Russians for what transpired at the Nord-Ost performance in Moscow where 129 people were killed. My wife was in Russia at the time, and she was crying and blaming the government. However, after I explained all of the available options she did understand. Once again the Russians made the best of an impossible situation. I seriously doubt American Delta could have done much better under the circumstances.

NO - because they retain the marxist/relativist ideal that the means justifies the end.

Careful, your fangs are showing.

Tell me Gary, if Russia is so great with their "flat tax" and "free markets", why aren't you exporting HUSBANDS to MOSCOW instead of RUSSIAN WIVES to the USA?

You really do need to brush those fangs, because your breath smells. As a matter of fact many Americans are marrying RW and living in Russia. I know several ex-pats who live and work there. Granted, there is not going to be a huge number of American men leaving to live in Russia in comparison to RW coming here, but then how many AM or AW are going to live any other place in the world?

For Gary to support the Russians is a bit like supporting the SS if they had holed up in Austria after the war.

And what you are missing is you are GUILTY of EXACTLY the very thing you hate. Nationalistic racism is evil, and until those in Europe and other parts of the world discard such evil attitudes there will be more wars in the future. Furthermore, your extreme prejudice is not only anti-American, but very antichristian. It is one thing to hate a false ideology, but another thing altogether to hate a race of people.

[DoctorMichael]

DITTO the numerous STFUs listed above.

[spanalot]

"Russia is a baby learning to walk, but she is trying."

"I do not support the Kremlin or communism"

"Putin and Lukashenko cannot even stand each other, however, they both know it would be in the best interest of the two countries to merge.'


"Baby"?

Russia merging with a communist country is in the "best interest" ?

Best Interest of What? The USA Freedom? Capitalism? Of What Gary? And since when do babies rattle several million megatons of sabers?

You do not support the interests of the USA - you don't support the interest of western Europe.

And now you don't support the Kremlin or Communism.

Well then why are you promoting the merging of the last communist holdout in Europe with the Kremlin?

How dare you criticize anyone for your Nam Vet grandstanding! You might have fought in Viet Nam but your current remarks gives pause as for which side you fought.

[sergey1973]

I just want to say a few more things before I leave this thread--I think I must say it even if you won't like it.

There is a right way and the wrong way to make a point.
I know one thing--fighting slander with slander and lies with more lies is definitely WRONG.

Gary.

With all due respect for your defense of Russians as ethnic group against unjust slander like all Russians are communists, Putinists, Stalinists, etc or spanalot "treasure" that all Russians "benefited" from Communism, I can't approve you always defending Putin Regime and claiming that those who attack Putin policies are automatically anti-Russian.

Flat tax and other economic successess can't overshadow the fact that Putin concentrated dangerously too much power in his hands, that he persecuted his political opponents, grossly interfered in Ukrainian elections, sanctioned unacceptably brutal behavior of the Armed Forces in Chechnya (with all danger of Islamic Extremism of Basayev and the ilk) and so on. He tries to whitewash certain aspects of Stalinist era which makes Russia's neighbors understandably nervous. Standing up against unjust attack on each and every Russian simply for being Native/ethnic Russian is absolutely right and honorable thing to do. However, defending the indefensible, like Putin behavior, is certainly not. So if you think Putin is good for Russia--that's your point, but please don't claim that anyone who attacks Putin regime is anti-Russian. This is an unjust slander.

Spanalot.

You have every right and obligation in the world to talk about Ukrainian tragedy under Russian/Soviet rule, especially Ukrainian Famine. What was done to Ukrainians in 1932-1933 is nothing short of genocide by Soviet/Communist authorities or Russian/Soviet/Kremlin Communists if you will.

But telling lies is definitely not the way to honor the victims. Denying or downplaying the well-known and easily verifiable fact that many millions of Russians perished under the Communist Terror too, including Collectivization, is not simply a lie--it's a spit on the graves of many millions of those Russians, be they ethnic Russians or the residents of Russian Federation, who lost their lives in Kolyma, Vorkuta, "kulak" deportations, Bolshevik Wars against peasantry, Volga Famine and so on. Claim that every surviving Russian "benefited" from this system is a gross slander and a completely absurd claim. How the Russian GULAG prisoners who were working day and night in Kolyma mines and numerous other GULAG projects on miger rations and dying in droves benefited from Ukrainian peasants who perished in Ukrainian Famine in 1932-1933 ? If these prisoners managed to survive somehow, were the land of Ukrainian Peasants given to the Russian Gulag Survivors ? Of course NOT--the land in Ukraine, Russia and elsewhere in fmr. USSR was confiscated to State-Run kolkhozes and sovkhozes turning the Soviet Peasantry (Ukrainian, Russian, Central Asian, etc) into state serfs unable to live freely the villages for cities due to the system of internal passports. Did Russian Gulag survivors received anything from the state they were slaving their lives for--NONE. Even today those few remaining who've been through GULAG, be they Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc, can't get a decent pension from the Russian Government.

Ordinary Russians had no benefit from Russian/Soviet Communist plunder of Russia, Ukraine and the rest of USSR. All the plunder was used to prop up the similar cannibal regimes round the world, build largely inefficient heavy industry and huge military industrial complex around Russia and the rest of USSR. All "benefit" that ordinary Russians had under Stalin was being the largest source of slave labor for Communist GULAG, cannon fodder to be spent at at any time for the WWII and other wars, and work nearly as slaves workers for the state-run industry (5 minute late for work could get you imprisoned and shipped to GULAG in the Stalinist USSR).

I'm not questioning the right to criticize modern Russian society for being largely subservient to the Putin regime and that more than 50% of Russians still did not get over the myths of Stalin "greatness" in which so many Russians perished. I'm not questioning the need for Russia to come to proper terms with its past and change its political behavior if it wants to be accepted as a civilized country.

However, it's not a justification to attack people simply because they were born Russians, regardless of their views. And certainly you have no moral right to slander the many millions of ordinary dead Russians who died during Lenin-Stalin terror by denying that there were such deaths or that they are "irrelevant" to your "bashing of Russians".
Of course you may keep on making absurd claims, but they will not become truth no matter how much you repeat them.

Those who perished in Communist terror, no matter what their origin, including Russians, will not be hurt by your slanders. Those who want to know truth will easily find out. God will not judge people for their ethnicity, race or place of birth--He'll judge how people actually lived their lives. Those who deliberately shed the blood of the innocents will always pay in the end--in this life or the next no matter what is their origin. Those Russians who participated in murdering of innocent Russians and non-Russians were or will be judged by the same criteria as anybody else. The innocent Russians alongside innocent Ukrainians and all other innocents perished in the Communist terror will always be remembered and honored--if not on earth than in heaven or whatever it is beyond this life. Slandering them here on earth will not hurt them. In the end, if you slander them here on earth, you really only slandering yourself--nobody else.

For all of us--it's first and foremost for our own sake to seek the truth and not to attack people unjustly or slander them. In the end, we will hurt ourselves when we engage in slander.


Regards,


Sergey

[GarySpFc]

Sergey,

I likewise have a response for you.

There is a right way and the wrong way to make a point. I know one thing--fighting slander with slander and lies with more lies is definitely WRONG.

YOU ARE DEAD WRONG ON THIS POINT, AND OWE ME AN APOLOGY. You apparently did not even read my response. That leaves me to believe you have a closed mind. If you would have read my response you would know I accepted your correction regarding Georgia, and admitted I was wrong, it was an honest mistake on my part. You completely overlooked that admission and apology. You apparently do not know the difference between a lie and honest mistake, or are simply too proud to apologize when wrong.

I can't approve you always defending Putin Regime and claiming that those who attack Putin policies are automatically anti-Russian.

YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN. I do not always defend Putin, which shows once again you have selective reading. I criticized Putin for several things, but I try to look at both sides. By your own admission YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TO RUSSIA SINCE 1993, and since that time you get your information from papers. The press in Russia is in many cases run by the oligarchs, which are anti-Putin.

Yes, Russia and Putin interfered in the Ukraine elections, and that was wrong. However, you do not see and admit what the EU, Poland, and the U.S. invested far more in monies and help than Russia in the election. That fact escapes you.

You also overlooked the fact that Mikael K. stole Yukos, broke the agreement he had with the Russian government to stay out of Politics, and when he entered politics Putin had every right to find the unpaid taxes.

You criticize Putin on his policies in Chechnya, but have you ever spent time in the military? Have you fought in a war? If yes, then you would know Putin is up against a determined enemy, and has to fight them with an ill trained army totally unlike the one the US has in Iraq. You UNCRITICALLY accept criticism of Putin regarding Beslan and Nord-Ost, but haven't a clue how the military operates, and how you would have done better.

Putin was wrong to sell advanced military supplies to China and a light water reactor to Iraq. He did not advance our cause in Iraq. He asked for the US to get out of the Stans, however on this point he is somewhat justified after he helped us secure the bases and supplied the Norther Alliance with both tank crews and materials. The Stans and the Ukraine are his sphere of influence, and we interfered there. I likewise am critical of his selling arms to Chavez in Venezuela.

In summary, you have every right to criticize Putin, but you are like those who hate George Bush in that you only see and comment on the bad, and will not try to see the good. That is simply wrong and being intellectually dishonest.

[sergey1973]

Gary--I perfectly accept your admittance of mistake about Georgia. I forgot to tell you--my fault. However, I stand by most of other of my comments about Putin. That's how I perceive Putin based on analysis of many other observers and my own.

If I missed your criticism about Putin and if I wrongly said something about you, than it's my fault and I have no problem apologizing for it at all. However, I was under the impression that you were attacking everybody [not just spanalot] who attacks Putin as anti-Russian. Lukasz and lizol do not attack each and every Russian for being Russian. They only attack Kremlin policies. At least I don't see them being anti-Russian--they don't deny that there were many Russian victims of Communist terror too. Also telling the facts of history, that many Russians slaughtered other Russians is unfortunate but fact and telling it in no way implies attack on each and every Russian.

If I wronged you anywhere even out of the best intentions, than I'm wrong, and I promise you and everybody else that I will never ever do that again. If I myself engaging in slander, than it's my fault and my wrong, especially after I wrote such a sermon about slandering.

[Ramzai]

Why is it that Russia which has a muslim problem

Russia have no "muslim problem". Russia have terrorists problem. Feel the difference Tom.

[TomasUSMC]

Russia have no "muslim problem". Russia have terrorists problem. Feel the difference Tom.

---

Yes and all the terrorists are members of the religion of peace.

Soooo. I feel the difference and the difference is nyet.
No difference.

Welcome to FR .

[Ramzai]

We have over 25 millions of muslims in Russia and you have over 5 millions in USA. Do you think they all are terrorists? IRA members are terrorists, but are they all muslims? Turkey is the muslim country, but it is the NATO member helped you to fight against al-Quaeeda. Go down to the real world, Tom. There is no cause-effect relation between a religion and a terrorism, only between a terrorism and a politics. Treat the illnes, not the symptom.

[Ramzai]

There is no cause-effect relation between a religion and a terrorism, only between a terrorism and a politics.

Of cource I mean "between a politics and a terrorism". That's my fault, sorry.
PS But actually the opposite is correct too. I think it is a kind of a vicious circle... :(

[TomasUSMC]

Turkey did not help us fight terrorism in Iraq. Do you remember when and why? Turkey was going to let the 4th Infantry Division attack Iraq but then Turkey changed its mind. Why? Because there was an election in Turkey and the new ruling party decided not to let American Troops use Turkish soil.

Do you remember what the name of that new political party was?

The Justice and Development Party (Turkish: Adalet ve Kalkýnma Partisi or AKP; often referred to in Turkey as the "Ak Party," Ak being Turkish for white, clean, or unblemished) is a Turkish political party. The AKP is a right-wing, moderately ISLAMIST party with a free market political agenda.

The AKP portrays itself as a moderate, right-wing conservative party with plans to combine elements of ISLAM with Turkey's everyday democratic and secular lifestyle. It has the aim of becoming Turkey's answer to Germany's CDU. Opponents, however, worry that it could be a front for ISLAMISTS, or at least anti-secularists – Turkey is officially secular. It won a landslide victory in the 2002 general elections, despite capturing barely a third of the popular vote, and its leader, former Istanbul mayor Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is currently the Prime Minister of Turkey.

The Justice and Development Party emerged from the embers of the staunchly ISLAMIST Welfare Party, which briefly led a coalition government in Turkey in 1996. In 2000 the Welfare Party was broken up by the military for allegedly threatening the secular nature of the Turkish Republic. A faction of conservative moderate ISLAMISTS within the old Welfare Party, known as Yenilikçiler, or in English, Renewalists formed the Justice and Development Party on August 14, 2001.

So as soon as an ISLAMIST political party took control in Turkey. Turkey stopped fighting terrorism. It stopped the 4th Division - it also prevented sending Turkish troops to Iraq

So you see there IS - a cause-effect relationship between the religion of Islam and terrorism.

Another example would be that the Ayatollah of Iran, who is a moslem, issued a FATWA OF D E A T H against Salmon Rushdie for writing a book, but of the 1.2 billion moslems on the earth, not one single moslem mullah or Ayatollah or leader has issued a FATWA OF D E A T H on Osama bin Ladin or Zarqawi. Why not?

Islam is THE problem in my opinion. It treats women like dirt. Clothing them head to toe like some 7th century ritual. AND does the Koran not say that those who are not moslem must convert or pay the submission tax, or be killed.

Doesn't sound like a religion of peace to me.

You mention the IRA, well I don't recall the IRA making videos of sawing heads off while yelling "Blessed Mary Mother of God!!!".


Now that being said, I want to tell you that I hope you continue to communicate on these matters. You hear my side and I hear yours. You see why I think this way and I see why you think that way. Feel free to email me also.

Spaceebo Drewg or Ma Salam Sadik.

[Ramzai]

Yes, Turkey did not help you in Iraq. But as I remember, Turkey helped you when you fight in Afganistan, didn't it? And some of muslim ex-USSR states (e.g. Uzbekistan and Kirgizia) helped you too. They were muslim states that time and they are muslim states now. But politics was changed and a "good muslims" instantly became a "bad muslims". In my opinion people can't change so quick and religion can't do this but politics can. That's why I think that islamic fundamentalism is not a religion (not only religion) but a politics, not a religion problem, but a politic one. We shouldn't mix these concepts. We have millions of loyal and lawful muslims over the world (e.g. here in Russia) and we should not fight against them, only against terorists and marginal islamic (and not only islamic - remember IRA) tendencies. So we do in Russia. PS Sorry for my bad English, I hope you have understood me.

[spanalot]

"How the Russian GULAG prisoners who were working day and night "

I deny that the bulk of Gulag prisoners were Russian.
If you have statistics, pls advise but based on the most recent info ( and not from the Russophile Solzeniyshen) the vast majority of prisoners were not Muscovy.