Posted on 08/19/2005 4:09:22 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
President Vladimir Putin (file photo) (CTK) Russian President Vladimir Putin called yesterday for a timetable for pulling foreign troops out of Iraq. The Russian leader said many Iraqis view the foreign troops as "occupiers" and suggested the withdrawal will encourage insurgents to abandon violence in favor of contributing to the creation of the state. The United States was quick to reject his call, saying it is still too early for a pullout.
Moscow, 19 August 2005 (RFE/RL) -- Speaking to reporters in the Black Sea resort of Sochi after a meeting with Jordan’s King Abdullah, Putin first reiterated his call for an international conference on Iraq.
Putin disapproves of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and insists such a conference might help bring peace to the strife-torn country.
Then the Russian president went one step further. He said it is imperative to draw up a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq.
“We deem it necessary to work out a timetable for the gradual withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq," Putin said. "Many Iraqis, we know this well, still consider these forces to be occupiers."
Encouraging Iraqi insurgents to take part in their country’s political process, he added, is another argument in favor of a swift pullout.
“Resolving this task will enable a significant part of the armed Iraqi resistance to be brought into the process of creating a state," Putin said.
President George W. Bush has consistently rebuffed international calls to set a schedule for withdrawing the 138,000 U.S. troops from Iraq. Putin's plea was no exception.
A few hours after the Russian president's statement, U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told a news briefing in Washington that Iraq was not yet ready for a withdrawal of foreign troops.
"I think [U.S.] President [George W.] Bush has spoken very clearly on our views on the issue of security assistance to the Iraqis," McCormack said. "As Iraqis stand up [increase] their capabilities, we and the multinational forces will be able to stand down [withdraw]."
McCormack also suggested the United States had little intention to hold an international conference on Iraq by the end of the year, as Putin proposed.
"We did, recently, have an international conference that was organized in Brussels, which had great attendance from around the world, from around the region, from Europe -- there was a delegation from Russia there, I believe, as well -- in which countries came together to express support for Iraq," McCormack said.
Putin has openly opposed the Iraq war. But this is the first time he has made such a clear-cut statement on the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq.
Putin’s statement comes just days after Russia carried out military exercises in the Barents Sea during which new intercontinental ballistic missiles were tested.
Yevgenii Volk, a political analyst and the director of Moscow's Heritage Foundation think thank, said both events indicate Putin might be trying to gain more influence in world affairs by flexing his country's military muscle.
“It is significant that the declaration was made directly after the Northern Fleet’s military exercises where, whatever people might say, scenarios of an atomic war with the U.S. were developed," Volk said. "This [declaration] is clearly a display of strength, and Putin is showing that Russia’s military power must and can translate into the strengthening of its political influence, no matter where the area of conflict is located.”
Russia and China also launched unprecedented joint military exercises yesterday amid U.S. concerns that the two giants might form a military alliance.
You do realize this is their first exercise with China ever while this year alone they've had something like 5 with us?
It was higher in Ukraine because most of the Russian peasants had already been crushed. Regardless, Stavrapol, Krasnagar, Volga and Rostov regions suffered as badly as any parts of Ukraine. All those regions had held out under the Whites.
Not true. Go look up the famine maps. The lower Volga, Stavrapol, Crimea (then Russian), Rostov were very heavily hit areas and in total combined are the size of Ukraine.
I'll give you stars for trying, but the point is, Spanalot is motivated by only one thing: hatred. It's as pointless as trying to point out to a Stormfronter or Klansman that not only are not all Jews bankers that not all Jews are rich by showing him poor Jews. It still won't change his mind. When it's hatred and lies and the devil that rule your agenda, well you can understand what you're dealing with.
It's called paranoia and hatred. It fills some with a dark purpose writen by you know who.
Vladmir who?
From Robert Conquest "Harvest of Sorrow" (very conservative estimates)
Peasant Dead 1930-1937 11 million
Arrested in this period,
died in camps later 3.5 million
TOTAL 14.5 million
Of these:
Dead as a result of
dekulakizaion 6.5 million
Dead in Kazakh catastrophe 1 million
Dead in 1932-1933 Famine:
in Ukraine 5 million
in N Caucasus (incl. Kuban) 1 million
Elsewhere 1 million
1932-1933 Famine epicentre was in Ukraine. However other areas were targeted too in this Famine.
Kuban/N Caucasus is in Russia but was predominantly ethnic Ukrainian (Kuban Cossacks) and other non ethnic Russian ethnicities.
However the other million come from Lower Volga, Don, Central Volga, Urals, and Western Siberia--all deep inside Russia proper. Would you say that not a single ethnic Russian was affected ? Don Cossacks were ethnical Russians and many of them perished in the Famine too targeted by Stalin.
Another 6.5 millions who died as the result of "Dekulakization"--stripping of the so called "rich" peasants of their property (which could be any independent peasant), deporting them to the remote areas of Russia and Central Asia and turning their land to collective farms "kolkhozes". Many died en route. Robert Conquest estimates 0.5 million Ukrainian deaths in the dekulakization process. Other 6 million dead come from elsewhere, including Russia (RSFSR).
Here are the passages from Robert Conquest book referencing "dekulakization" in Russia proper (RSFSR).
"For Various provincial and other committees were soon exceeding their allotted numbers [of exiled "kulaks"]. In Moscow Province, the exile quota was aboud doubled in practice, and similarly in Ivanovo-Voznesensk, according to a Soviet Study. In fact it is officially established in the most formal party documents that in some regions instead of correct dekulakization of 4-5% of the farms, the figure was as high as 14-20%".
"As professor Moshe Lewin concludes, 'the number of deportees more or less admitted so far by Soviet sources already exceeds one million households or five million souls', and this is for RSFSR [Russia] and the Ukraine alone, to which thousands of households from other republics (40,000 from Uzbekistan) must be added. He sums up that in fact 'ten million persons, or more, must have been deported'. A similar estimate of ten to eleven million is reached by another prominent researcher, who concludes, that about third of them perished. "
"In Western Siberia, in the 1931-1932 procurement campaign, 1,000 kulaks were sentenced, together with 4,700 other peasants described as 'close to them socio-economically'.
"In the summer of 1932 scores of thousands of prisoners, almost entirely peasants were thrown ashore at Magadan in ill-considered crash programme to exploit the newly discovered gold seams in the area. When the fearful winter of the coldest sea in the Northern Hemisphere came, whole camps perished to a man, even including guards and guard dogs. Over the whole operation survivors estimate that not more than fifty of the prisoners, if that, survived; and the following year is reported as killing them even more. As a fellow inmate remarks (speaking of the Russians among them), 'they died, showing once again this national quality which Tyutchev has glorified, and which all politicians have abused-patience'."
Here is another reference to collectivization in Russia Proper--read the fragment about peasant uprisings against collectivization that includes plenty of regions outside of Ukraine, including Russia (RSFSR) and largely Russian Central Russia Black Earth Region unless you want to keep on denying that there was collectivization in Russia proper and heavily Russian areas of Central Russia.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2005/is_n3_v31/ai_20574169
"Among the most interesting archival sources on which Viola draws in chapters 4 and 5 is an OGPU (secret police) memorandum on "forms of class war in the countryside in 1930" which covers both "terrorist acts" committed by individuals (murder, assault, arson) and collective disturbances (protests, riots, armed uprisings). The OGPU reported almost 14,000 terrorist acts in the Soviet Union in 1930, of which 1,198 were murders, 5,720 were attempted murders and assaults, and 6,324 were cases of arson. The largest number of acts came from the Ukraine (2,779) and Russia's Central Black earth region (1,088), with the Urals, Siberia, and the North Caucasus (all regions of the Russian Republic) not far behind. (The significance of these figures would be easier to judge if Viola had supplied population figures for the various regions.) In mass disturbances, the OGPU's other recording category, Ukraine again led the field in 1930, with over four thousand incidents with a total of almost one million participants, followed by the North Caucasus, the Central Black Earth region, the Volga, and Central Asia. Nationwide, according to the OGPU's figures, almost two and a half million peasants participated in some form of collective protest in 1930."
Actually I did read that book :)
Let's make one thing clear...bud: all that Gary has done was whine, use his "Russian Bride by (e)Mail" as source of subjective info and lots of googling and throw a fit when he didn't get it his way. What proof has he offered but rhetoric and repeating, obsessively, that "I was an A-Team SF"? Besides, I could care less for any proof he might have in the matter, his behavior speaks volume, the vets I met behave in a distinguished and respectful manner and NEVER use their status for personal gain (and on a forum for that matter!), unlike "I wanna be a SF GI Gary" here. And yes, Gary, the correct military abbreviation is SF and not SpFc, something which you should have known, right?
And something else, Bud. I understand your connection to him and it's irrelevant to me but let me give you both the definition of slander: to defame. He's done that to himself, his behavior, his remarks, his fits and I while I will believe that he did serve in Nam (just simple math because of his age, he didn't have much choice, all the young men his age then were drafted), I sincerely doubt his affiliation with any unit in Fort Bragg. He has failed all the basic SF missions in the way he behaved here: FID, UW, SR, PSYOP, DA. And another thing, bud: one look at your previous posts and this one and any moron can see the difference in them but I guess Gary enlisted your support and even told you what to write. There's differences in structure and grammar and I am truly disappointed with you, I used to think of you as someone with logic.
Cheers!
Bud, you mention paranoia in the first part of the paragraph and then you say "written by you know who.. Ummm, is this a live example of paranoia which you just given us? :) Cuz you know, the definition of paranoia is the tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others. So be careful, you know who might get you!
BOOO!
Or its a sign of familiarity with some one's BS and no need to bother mentioning the name, since everyone knows it. That's the basis of pronouns. You don't always say: Bob did this or Bob did that: once people know its Bob you can just as easily say: he did this or he did that. Same difference.
"polish complexes towards Russia as big as russian territory" leh Valensa
http://www.rian.ru/interview/20050823/41211218.html
And what are we talking about when there are only 7! per cent supreme educationed poles(university graduated people)
in russia it over 85%
Parametr of the general literacy 98%
It still taking into a count that the population of Russia 3 times bigger than population of Poland.
Now i see why we can't understand each other. I'm sorry but no spanalot, no Quinotto of all the discussion time have not resulted any fact, all that they can answer on the reasons resulted by us are stamped insults & stereotyped answer "that is russian propoganda" they even can't see the difference between RF & USSR
Yeah...civilized west...in Poland...
Yeah. With such math knowledge you couldn't even complete grade school in Poland. Before writing such bullshit you should've checked your basic data. On UN Human Development Index Poland's rank is 37th, Russia's 57th (USA 8th, Norway is the first). Education index for Poland is 0,96, Russia 0,95, US 0,97.
There are many intelligent and highly educated people in Russia but you are certainly not one of them.
"Dead in 1932-1933 Famine:
in Ukraine 5 million
in N Caucasus (incl. Kuban) 1 million
Elsewhere 1 million "
and These numbers from the 80's have been updated with the help of Soviet archives - the death toll in Ukraine itself was 10 million as admitted by Stalin and Duranty among others.
And there is a big difference between exile and having an entire country sealed off and starved for two years.
""You think thats funny - I'm LOL why Gary did not know what a thai stick was.""
"I haven't the slightest interest in a thai stick, nor does that have anything in the slightest to do with my service."
"Thai stick" is known by every Nam vet - even Kerry!
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:DJ5OsXbnk5cJ:www.theassassinatedpress.com/adiodi37.htm+%22thai+stick%22+kerry&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
And he was there only for three months!
Spot on! jb6 and GarySpfc are of the same relativist ilk as the other Russophiles on this string - its getting boring too.
Why don't they find the one good Nazi and resurrect the Third Reich?
But now you see that Collectivization and Famine did not stop at Ukraine's border--right ? Don, Kuban, North Caucasus, Volga, Western Siberia, Central Russia--all over Russia proper there were collectivizations with "kulaks" murdered or exiled from their property and dying enroute to their destination or dying in their new places in GULAGs or other labor colonies. At the same era of Ukrainian famine of 1932-1933 Don, Kuban, Lower Volga, North Caucasus, Western Siberia and Urals lost at least 2 million people (again conservative estimate). So called "lesser" famines.
Sealing off Ukraine and seizing it's grain so Ukrainian peasantry would starve to death was surely the most terrible crime of the collectivization era. This one I don't dispute at all. What I disputed is your absurd assertions that there were no ethnic Russians or Russian Federation inhabitants who were "collectivized" exiled and perished en route or died at the point of destinations (often in GULAG's) around the time of Ukrainian Famine. You want to especially honor starving Ukrainians sealed off from the rest of the world in 1932-1933--that's absolutely right thing to do. We must honor their memory and we must unequivocally condemn the Soviet Communist system that made this crime possible. But denying or downplaying the multiple deaths of others outside of Ukraine (incl. those in Russia) is amoral.
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