Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 15

Missing: Natalee Holloway participated in a trip with 125 seniors from Mountain Brook High School to Aruba in the Caribbean. In the early morning hours on May 30, 2005 Natalee was seen leaving a nightclub and getting into a vehicle. She failed to turn up Monday morning for her return flight home and she has not been seen since. Foul play is suspected in her disappearance.

Profile: Natalee Holloway was born on October 21, 1986 to Beth and Dave Holloway. She grew up in the close-knit community of Mountain Brook, a suburb of Birmingham, Alabama. She was very popular and respected by her classmates and had a reputation among peers at being very intelligent and focused on her future. She lived up to her reputation, graduating as an honors student from the Mountain Brook High School.

Extracurricular Activities: During Natalle's high school years she participated several extracurricular activities including: The American Field Service - A club which interacts with the foreign exchange students. Dorians Dance Team Future Business Leaders of America Mu Alpha Theta - Math honor society Natural Helpers - A peer based emotional support group. Outdoors Club Spanish Club Spanish Honor Society Spartan Pride - School pep group. TASC - Teens Actively Serving the Community

Future Goals: Natalee received a full scholarship to the University of Alabama. She planned to major in Pre-Med, in order to pursue her goal of being a pediatrician.

Red
http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?p=129739#129739
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:23 pm

I would like to thank Sam Pepenella [mrpumba] for joining us this evening and helping as learn more about dog handling and search & rescue in general as well as his experiences in Aruba dealing with the Natalee Holloway search ...
http://www.k9forensicsteam.com/
Searches: http://www.k9forensicsteam.com/searches.htm
Team members: http://www.k9forensicsteam.com/team.htm#sam

mrs. red:
Hi Sam,
Thanks for coming on.... is there a particular breed of dog that is better suited to this type of work?

mrpumba wrote:
Yes there is. Generally there are certain types of dogs suited for this type of work. I work a German Shepherd due to their stamina and all around. There are several more types suited for search work, being the Belgin Malinois, Austrialian Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd, Labs etc. most of your hearding type dogs. There are limitations to all types of dogs, and careful consideration must be made in selecting the right K9

THolloway wrote:
I'd like to know the dogs. How can the dogs differentiate between human remains and other scents? Are they a special breed? Any comment on their training regimen?

mrpumba wrote:
Training.....Training......Training......HRD or Human Remain Dogs must be trained on deceased Human scent. They must be taught to tell the difference between a decomposing body from an animal. There are several chemical compositions which make up decomp. Dogs noses are so sensitive they can pick these smells up. When they detect the decomp smell, they give a trained alert.

HannieC wrote:
Hi sam thank you for answering our questions...I want to know how this dogs are trained before they can find any remains iow..Is there the use of real remains to train them or not? TIA

mrpumba wrote:
There are two different types of scents (decomp) the K9 trainers work with. There is psuedu (not sure of the correct spelling) and scent from cadaver. Without getting to involved into it, I prefer the actual scent source, being human decomp or "source". Pending on where you live in the country is going to determine if you use real human remains. Certain states don't all possession of human body parts.

writergal wrote:
Even if you do use a particular breed, do you look for individual dogs with particular characteristics? Or do the ones you end up using and training show a special aptitude right away?

mrpumba wrote:
A good trainer and handler will see a "working dog" and a non working dog' We look for High Ball Drives in the specific breed. These dogs generally want to work.....kinda like people we work with. Some want to and others dont!

SunnyinTX wrote:
Hi thanks for joining us. I'd like to know what the potential dangers are to the dogs that have been working at the landfill since we heard there were bio-hazardous materials found there and several of the humans working at the landfill have been ill? Thanks Sunny

mrpumba wrote:
You must protect your K9. You need to take into consideration the enviroment your working. Sharps, Bio.....the list goes on. You know what you put in your trash can, would you allow your dog to play or eat it. It is not a good idea to have your K9 hanging around the dump for many hours or the sensitivity will decrease. Just as if you worked in a smelly place and after several hours your senses are numb. A good handler must break their K9's from the area very often and not leave them in the area long.

szundi wrote:
Hi!What factors in the environment affect the dogs' ability to smell a cadaver.Thank you.ZOON (owner and breeder of Hungarian Sheepdogs(Puli)

mrpumba wrote:
Heat, rain, cold, time

HannieC wrote:
Sam what do you actually do to protect yourself if you search thru all kinds of places like the landfill on aruba or anywere else,b/c you must come in some terrible places sometimes. And did you become ill often after searches? TIA

mrpumba wrote:
No we did not become ill but there were many hazards needing to be watched when doing a search in a landfil. First thre are many shaprs you must keep an eye out for. You must also be very cautious with standing water, a breeding place for bacteria. To limit the K9 and handlers exposure, we try to work an area the best way possible in and out of the area. long garments for the handler and booties for the K9's. Also some considerations on searches are tics and all kinds of bitting BUGS!!!!

AnnieMW1 wrote:
Hi there - While humans can wear masks to protect themselves, how about the dogs? Do they get sick from contaminants? TIA

mrpumba wrote:
I have not had seen any cases were a K9 has become ill. As I stated above, good handling is a must. There were numerous claims with the 911 attacks, K9's became ill or their life was cut short. This was speculation and there is no supporting evidence. Just as anything else, you must be concerned that your K9 will become ill if left in a landfill toooooo long.

jstaffen wrote:
Did the cadaver dogs indicate they smelled something important at the well in the van der sloat's yard?

mrpumba wrote:
I'm not aware of that, and can't comment on it.

sandraK wrote:
Welcome SAM, Do you feel your years in the USAF..and Fla. Law inforcement..Not to mention your " Medal of Valor "..Have Got you Ready for your K9 Services? I think your The Best

mrpumba wrote:
Of course but it is not a necessity. There are a lot of great handlers out there who have less experience as I. If you love what your doing, willing to commit, are phisically able, and work hard you can be a good handler and work K9's. However, there are a lot of people who mean well but should really consider working a K9 when they should not. I always say, it takes more than a pilot to get a plane off the ground.

mskygirl wrote:
Are the cadaver dogs similar to service animals. They work and then they are domestic pets around the home? Do they stay with you when you travel on a job or are they caged/kenneled?

mrpumba wrote:
When my girl is not working, she is very much the family pet at the house.

_scott wrote:
How do your dog(s) indicate a hit?

mrpumba wrote:
Pending on what the handler deciedes for their K9, the alerts are different. On our team there are 4 K9's and 2 different alerts. 3 sit and one lays down.

Aruba leader assures missing teen's mother that probe won't end

8/20/2005, 4:27 p.m. CT

By MARGARET WEVER The Associated Press

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — Aruba's prime minister met Saturday with the mother of missing U.S. teen Natalee Holloway and assured her investigators would not stop looking for answers about her daughter's fate.

Beth Holloway Twitty expressed concerns that the investigation, which has produced no trace of the missing Alabama teenager after nearly three months, would fizzle, said Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

"She wants to see us continue making efforts," Oduber told reporters. "I guaranteed her that, as prime minister, we will continue looking for what happened."

Oduber said he also urged Holloway Twitty, who has been critical of the investigation into her daughter's disappearance, to be careful about her remarks regarding the Dutch Caribbean island's judicial system.

"I appealed to her to be more careful with her expressions concerning our people in general because there are many people, and I am one of them ... who have stood by her side," Oduber said.

He also urged Arubans to be sensitive to the Holloway family's anguish. Some Arubans have expressed anger about the criticism their judicial system has faced from the Holloway family and U.S. legal experts.

"I ask Arubans for a bit of understanding," he said. "It is very painful to have a child with a brilliant future to disappear."

Holloway, 18, vanished in the early hours of May 30 during a vacation to celebrate her Mountain Brook High School graduation. Police and hundreds of volunteers have scoured the small island in vain for her.

Joran van der Sloot, a Dutch teenager who has acknowledged being alone with Holloway the night she disappearance, is the only person still in custody in the case. Van der Sloot, 18, says he left Holloway on a beach near the Marriott Hotel and did not harm her. He has not been charged.

Holloway Twitty also asked to be kept better informed during her meeting with Oduber, said government spokesman Ruben Trapenberg. The prime minister offered to relay her concerns to police, he said.

"He can make calls to the police chief and say, 'Hey, this isn't being done. Let's fix this,'" Trapenberg said.

The prime minister last month urged Aruban prosecutors to give the FBI complete access to materials from the investigation to the extent allowed under Dutch law, which governs the island. Authorities subsequently sent transcripts from the investigation, including van der Sloot's interrogations, to the FBI, which is advising in the case.

Continued . . . http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=1581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

SunnyinTX wrote:
To what depth can the dog find the scent....speaking about at the landfill or buried in the sandy soil...and if the body was wrapped in plastic would that impeded their being able to detect the decomp scent?? Thanks, Sunny

mrpumba wrote:
Sonny, There are meny factors effecting what a cadaver K9 can and cannot detect. To what depth: It is not necessaraly what depth but what has come to the surface. The gasses rise and that is what the K9's detect. Often a tree will soak up the nutrients and dispell them in the air. It is not uncommon for the K9's to "bark up a tree". Does the plastic effect the chance of detection? Well it can but many of victims have been found in plastic wrap......so ...

HannieC wrote:
Sam, are you and the others sometimes "send" to search outside the US in other countries besides now in aruba with this case of natalee or is this the first time out of the US? Thanks...

mrpumba wrote:
My second search out of the country. My first was Panama Central America.....

writergal wrote:
1. Do you use actual human remains to train them?
2. How long can they stay at this work before they have to "retire"?

mrpumba wrote:
Pending what state you live in determines if you can posses HR. Depends on the health of the K9 and type. Generally, you can expect to work a K9 in the cadaver field to about age 8.9. or 10. T

nikkibnurse wrote:
Sam, thank you for being here... Just wanted to ask..I know that time can be a factor in a hit that a cadaver dog may get.....How much time would have to lapse before the dog wouldnt hit on remains?Do skeletal remains ever get hits, or do the remains still have to be in decomposition phase? Thank you!

mrpumba wrote:
The oldest hit recorded with a K9 is over a thousand years. Mine has hit a hundred yoa grave. There are many factors which can dictate how much time laps to where the K9 can smell or not smell.. but that is a very long and detailed question. Environment is important.....

Thanks TK.

So, we are starting to see the officials surface. The PM is the stern, but "loving father", dealing with two disagreeing children: Beth, the lovely but emotional daughter and the ALE, the lovable but kooky son.

Personally, if he wanted to make things really better, he would toss Ruben Trapenberg out on his rear end.

I don't think Beth is asking for anything more than communication, investigation and respect. We've yet to see that happen.

The line about getting the transcripts to the FBI...sure, but they are in Dutch. And days after the fact.

OK, my followup is to the FBI-why don't we have someone down there who speaks Dutch? Are we to believe we have no one in our intelligence community capable of speaking this language?

Why isn't there the effort though, by the ALE, to keep the family informed on a regular basis on what is going on with this case? Talk about a PR nightmare brought on by themselves.

You have a child disappear in the night, you have people "investigating" the case who don't do basic 101 investigation from the start, "interrogations" are in another language but then you find there are no followup questions so how do these classify as interrogations?

Nothing was impounded the night she disappeared, nothing was searched.

and so it goes.

One thing I want to say after reading all those posts on SM criticizing the US with all the missing people in the states: that is true, we are a very large country, and we do have missing people that we cannot locate after doing all the proper steps.

The difference here is the basic steps were not taken from the start, if they had been we might have an entirely different outcome. That is what is so alarming.

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