This is a "machine gun": 
This is NOT: 
You recall that a postal worker had tipped the Davidians that the cops were coming. BATFE knew the cat was out of the bag, and the element of surprise, critical in making a dangerous arrest, had been lost.
Two BATFE supervisors kept this information to themselves, and sent the raiders, who believed surprise was still on their side, in to make the arrests. Armed resistance was ready and waiting, and every spot they intended to utilize as entry points was defended by people with firearms.
You remember the BATFE guys who went up on the roof? They were machine-gunned through the wall, dead and wounded, lying on the rooftop.
They climbed on the roof and were ambushed. Those guys didn't have a chance to knock (not that they would have anyway).
The Davidians fired first, and they intended to, and you think BATFE should have knocked? What an asinine statement.
Waco isn't the subject here, however. The major problem with BATFE is that their jurisdiction is so narrow (alcohol moonshining, tobacco smuggling, and federal firearms violations), that they don't have enough to do, frankly.
The agents hang around police departments, waiting for the police to make an arrest where a gun is found. That's the extent of their investigation, aside from record checks, and it's not very exciting. They also hang around with DEA, because there's always action, DEA needs the help, and the drug/gun circumstance is a heavy federal violation.
And they try to set up undercover sting operations now and then to attract illicit gun owners/dealers and develop prosecutable cases. Ruby Ridge started with just such a BATFE sting.
This gun show invasion is but another idea somebody in BATFE, with too much time on his hands and wanting some meritorious recognition, probably, came up with. And the outcome of it all was no arrests and their promise to never do that again. At least no one got killed.
Any federal law enforcement agency has to justify its budget, and reason for existence, by showing how effective it has been.
That's easy (relatively) for the FBI, DEA, Customs and Secret Service, because of the high volume of cases they handle. BATFE does not have the "luxury" of a high volume caseload, but still has to show statistical accomplishment, which mainly comes from the PD and DEA associations.
You may not know this, but BATFE has, in the recent past, been considered for elimination, with their personnel absorbed by other federal agencies. This is because BATFE has difficulties showing worthwhile statistical accomplishment.
If they had found an angle at the gunshow, they might have made thirty arrests.....wow, lots of stats!
Here's a contrast: BATFE, with too many resources and no jurisdiction/caseload to keep them busy; Border Patrol, with not enough resources to handle its jurisdictional responsibilities.
BATFE is kind of the runt of the federal LE litter. It seems that every time they attempt something above their routine, they are spectacularly unsuccessful. They have blundered into a deserved reputation....FUBAR.
"The Davidians fired first, and they intended to, and you think BATFE should have knocked? What an asinine statement. "
That they did not. The BATFAGS fired first while killing some dogs, penned bitches and puppies. They like to do that. It establishes the relationship with their victims right off and it gives them woodies.
If the BATFAGS had been ambushed, given the flat stupidity of their assault plan, there would have been dozens of fedscum dead instead of four.
Oh, and that machinegun fire though the roof? It came AFTER some of the assault crew had knocked out a window and entered the building. A following BATFAG threw a flashbang into the room for some bizarro reason and his buddies inside responded with fire.
To my knowledge, no illegal weapons were ever found, and it wasn't from lack of looking. Plus, I have seen video of the holes being made in the wall from exiting rounds when those agents were shot: That fire was definitely semi-automatic. No one was "machine-gunned".
The BATmen raid was stupidity of an unconscionable level. They pulled up in the yard of people they suspected of owning illegal high powered weaponry and started shooting. What kind of response did they expect?
The Branch Davidians were kooks and nuts, but our federal law enforcement agencies showed themselves to be just as bad and far more dangerous.
Every part of that fiasco was handled by people drunk on their own arrogance, and every time they failed they just opened another bottle.
This is a "machine gun":
This is NOT:
They could have arrested David Koresh on his bicycle when he came to town.
Well in general if someone comes and knocks on my door I answer it and ask what they want. If someone surrounds my house and sends men with masks through second bedroom windows with Uzi's in their hands I'm a lot more likely to shoot first.
Used to be real bravery was a part of being a law enforcement officer. This might include being the person selected to "ring the doorbell" in an arrest case. We won't know what might have happened had they done that, but we do know that law enforcement had many other opportunities to arrest Koresh outside the compound in the weeks running up to the raid. He frequently jogged on local roads.
How do you reconcile the overwhelming force used to effect an individual arrest with the large number of women and chlidren in compound.
So maybe the answer wasn't the BATF knocking, per say, but rather using their brains to effect an arrest without killing everyone in the vicinity. They abjectly failed in that goal, brought derision and disgrace on the agency and the Federal Government. Now THAT'S ASSININE !!
Actually, that's not true. The ATF fired the first shots at Waco and admitted as much at trial.
L
You remember the BATFE guys who went up on the roof? They were machine-gunned through the wall, dead and wounded, lying on the rooftop.
They were shot by their own guy, the first one inside, when one of the goons popped up behind him, and he turned and spray-n-prayed a whole magazine.
They climbed on the roof and were ambushed. Those guys didn't have a chance to knock (not that they would have anyway).
Knocking wasn't part of the plan. As far as who fired first is concerned, it seems that the first shot was fired by ATF against dogs, and this was their plan. The two sides are in disagreement about who shot next (imagine that). Normally I'd take the word of a fed over a criminal member of some whacky cult, but the ATF is a whacky cult of its own.
Koresh's toadies were definitely laying for the Feds, though, and that's not excusable behaviour.
The major problem with BATFE is that their jurisdiction is so narrow (alcohol moonshining, tobacco smuggling, and federal firearms violations), that they don't have enough to do, frankly.
Same reason ICE has caught something like tens of thousands of kiddie porn geeks lately. They are not allowed to enforce immigration laws or hunt violent illegal immigrants, so they pick something that's unpopular enough they're allowed to arrest for it.
With the Democratic establishment in most cities, and the all-Democrat staffs in most urban newsrooms, gun owners are about as popular as pedophiles there (less popular, actually: look how pedo-murderers always turn out to have been released once before by bleeding heart Dem judges).
A feller could get hurt trying to infiltrate the MS-13 or another violent criminal gang, which is another reason lots of Feds would rather chase paperwork violators at gun shows.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
batfe has no jurisdiction on records checks. that's the FBI. batfe is a TAX AGENCY. their job is to keep records and collect taxes on NFA weapons. they should not take military action over alleged violations a $200 tax. and that is exactly what happened at both waco and ruby ridge. it was alleged that they had an NFA regulated weapon that they hadn't paid a $200 tax on.
if you do that on income taxes they send you a letter. do that with an NFA weapon, the take military action.
and also, batfe has admitted numerous times that their records are often incorrect and incomplete.
Propaganda.
TV news showed 3 ATF agents going through the window on the roof --- shortly after the third agent entered, the 4th agent remaining on the roof fired into that window.
Three of the four dead agents were found inside that window.
Three of the 4 agents killed had previously been on Clinton's security detail. He mentioned them in a speech afterward.
The shots through the roof from inside were obviously semi-auto fire. The agent on the roof went down the ladder, not dead on the roof.