VA-ALERT: BATFE sinks to a new low in Richmond

Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. ^ | Thu 8/18/2005 12:21 AM | Philip Van Cleave,VCDL President

[SWO]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show! The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not. Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's name, badge number, and department.

*************************************************************************** VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org

[fire_eye]

You may be a little young and immature, IMO, to make intelligent posts on FR. Do you know that you are the ONLY poster who calls the BATFE agents "BATFAGS"?

I agree. The correct appelation is "BATFEC" - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Cults.

The correct pronunciation is "BAT-FEC" - as in, "America has been BAT-FEC'd".

[fire_eye]

Oh, my goodness. I left out the "Explosives". How thoughtless of me. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[fire_eye]

There are no Republicans or Demonrats any more.

There are only statist oligarchs, and peasants.

[William Tell]

Randi Papadoo said: "The dogs were undoubtedly considered in the raid plan, and they would have been shot in the case that they posed a threat to the raiders. "

You think they considered the dogs but not the machine guns and .50 BMG rifles which thay claimed justified their raid?

[headsonpikes]

You can always trust the BATF-ers of this world to be BATF-ers.

[R. Scott]

One of the missions of the BATF is to control gun crimes. If they can discourage people from legally purchasing firearms …
Right. These buyers aren’t the criminal types …
Well, it is safer to knock on doors and fill out a questionnaire than to go after criminals.

[headsonpikes]

I take note that the proper term is BATFAGs.

[woerm]

currently praying that it doesn't devolve into armed v targets.

Statists tend to enjoy exterminating peons.
(insert long dissertation on historical sources of 2nd ammendment)

wondering if BAFTE et al are stupid or actually trying to get folks to vote from the rooftops.

r

[fire_eye]

Both.

The BATFEC'ers are just a government goon squad of dumb thugs, and as such, they are just as you suggest: (a) stupid, and (b) spoiling for a fight.

I submit as independent evidence, the FBI's comment when the suggestion was made, during the Reagan administration, of removing BATFEC from Treasury and merging it with the FBI. The FBI was dead set against it. Their comment (as reported on Neal Knox's mailing list): "When you mix dirty water with clean water, you get dirty water."

[Leatherneck_MT]

There are the words to describe the proper response to this bullshit.

Lock And Load

[publiusF27]

That seems to be a prevalent response, at least in the free states, but in another thread about this, uh, operation in Virginia, I learned that in New Jersey, they contact everyone around you if you want to buy a gun, and if you want to buy a gun and you're a minority, forget it. You can read about it here:

The High Road thread

[supercat]

I'm just plain honest, 100%. Now and then, when things go wrong like this, apologizing isn't really difficult, because I know it has to be done. Inside, it's not that easy. It's time for me to chill and reflect some.

We all say really stupid things sometimes.

One thing I wish some pro-government guy would explain to me, though, is where the flaw is in my thinking that the BATF agents on the initial raid should all be charged with seven counts of Murder in the First Degree (yeah, I know that's not going to happen with the corrupt government in this country, but there's no statute of limitations so one can always hope...)

1. The warrant the BATF had was a knock-and-announce warrant.
2. Legitimate execution of such a warrant requires that at the time of the search a bona fide effort be made to present it to an occupant of the property in question.
3. If there were bona fide plans to present the warrant to David Koresh or any of the Davidians, everyone on the raid should have known about them.
4. None of the people on the raid who have been questioned about the warrant knew of any plan to serve it.
5. Evidence thus suggests that there was no legitimate plan to serve the warrant.
6. Since there was no legitimate plan to serve the warrant, there was no legal basis for a forced entry into the Davidians' home.
7. Armed forcible entry into an occupied dwelling without legal justification is a felony (home invasion robbery).
8. Home invasion robbery is a crime which may quite foreseeably result in death of robbers and/or victims.
9. Eleven deaths actually occurred as a result of the BATF's home invasion robbery.
10. Under the felony murder rule, deaths which occur as the foreseeable result of a felony are prosecutable as Murder in the First Degree.

Aside from the problem that nobody in government wants to expose the corruption there, are there any flaws in the case above?