Supreme Court asked to hear witch case

Richmond Times-Dispatch ^ | 8/9/05

[Crackingham]

The American Civil Liberties Union has asked the U.S. Supreme Court to review a decision that allows the Chesterfield County Board of Supervisors to exclude a local witch from leading the prayer at open meetings.

The ACLU of Virginia yesterday filed its petition with the court seeking to reverse a Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals decision, said ACLU attorney Rebecca K. Glenberg.

"Our position is that the 4th Circuit did something really extreme in its decision," she said. "It held that it was acceptable for a government body to treat people differently because of religion."

Cynthia Simpson, a witch who lives in Chesterfield, requested in 2002 to be placed on a list of religious leaders invited to deliver the invocation at meetings of the Board of Supervisors. So far, her request has been denied.

[antiRepublicrat]

will see what I can find once I get home tonight if I remember. I can recall two or maybe 3, so that really isn't "numerous," but you get the point.

It's easy to dig up the self-interested whackos of any religion.

[McGavin999]

The federal government should stay out of it. The constitution only says what rights are given to the federal government by the people. What is not specifically spelled out remains the right of the states and/or the people.

The town council has the right, since they were elected by the people, to decide who gets to talk at their meetings. If she doesn't like it, she should move to a town who finds her more acceptable. Mind you, nobody is telling her she can't be a witch, they're just telling her they don't want to listen to what she has to say. It's their right.

[orionblamblam]

> Won't make it any more true.

[boggle]



OK, where *did* the English common law come from? Did the pagan Saxon common law show up on English shores, immediately vanish in a puff of logic, and then something startlignly similar -BUT WHOLLY UNRELATED TO THAT PAGANRY -suddenly spring into the forebrain of some monk or bishop?

[mugs99]

HAHAHA! And what would THAT be???

Well, the latest example would be the Raich case. This case was brought before the Supreme Court by John Ashcroft, breaking the campaign promise of our Christian president George Bush. This decision was demanded by the Christian right and strips us of our Constitutional right of self determination.

Alcohol Prohibition. A Christian founded morality crusade that gave birth to the mob that now controls the unions that support the socialisation of America.

War On Drugs. Another Christian founded morality crusade that has turned our Constitution into arse wipe, and given us the violent drug gangs that endanger our children.

Want more? I can take the list back to the Spanish American War. Atheists, communists and witches are not taking our liberties, Christian crusaders are.
.

[mugs99]

The same Congress first used public money to print Bibles

Not true. The first American Congress was held in 1789. The Bible printing was in 1777 when Congress was still under British rule. If Christians can't be honest about history or campaign promises, how do they expect us to trust anything they say about current problems?
.

[IronJack]

ERRR. The "In God We Trust" bit came about in the 1950's as, officially, a poorly-conceived thumb in the eye to Commies (in reality, just the usual sort of pander one comes to expect from politicians).

Bzzzzt!

1) The "Star-Spangled Banner" was written in 1814. Its fourth verse contains the phrase "And this be our motto: "In God is Our Trust."
2) The phrase was placed on US coinage by act of Congress in December of 1863. In fact, the letter from Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase requesting said legislation might prove illustrative:

Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins.

You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.

Thanks for playing. No home edition of the game for you.

It replaced the much more accurate and magnificent E Pluribus Unum.

Bzzzzt. Another loser. "E Pluribus Unum" is still used on American currency. It is part of the Great Seal of the United States.

The DoI is not a "framing document" for the US. That would be the Constitution.

The document that literally asserted the independence of this nation, detaching it forever from the sovereignty of Great Britain and establishing a "new order of Nature" is not a framing document? Then the title to your car does not confer ownership of the vehicle.

By the way, I don't recall any mention of forbidding Wicca in the Constitution either.

I don't recall saying anything about forbidding Wacka ... er, excuse me, Wicca. I said that the Board was free to select the Moonbat ... er, I mean, "priestess" for the invocation, then leave the room. Or would you have them chained to their chairs so that they could experience the joys of "tolerance"?

Which was derived from *Saxon* common law.

Alright, since you seem to want to fixate on this trivial aspect of law, let's look into it a bit. It is arguable that Saxon law was defined by the Capitulary of Charlemagne (the HOLY ROMAN EMPORER Charlemagne, that is) in 775 A.D. (that's an abbreviation for the Latin Anno Domini, "in the year of Our Lord," an odd designation for a culture not founded on Judeo-Christian tenets). That Capitulary lists at least two dozen laws that define punishment (up to and including death) for participation in pagan rituals. It prescribes that infants shall be baptized within a year of birth. It allows priests to issue a final judgement on capital cases. It requires the death penalty for murder of a bishop, priest, or deacon. And is spares the life of penitents "on account of the honor due to God and the saints, and the reverence due to the church itself." Doesn't sound like Saxon law was exactly divorced from Christian influence, does it? If you'd like, we can go back even further, to Mosaic or Hammurabic law to root out the Judaic contribution. But you already know that, don't you?

All of which is only slightly germane, since a culture is far more than just its laws. Your Saxon diversion notwithstanding, we are a Christian nation. Period.

You're not French, are you?

No. I'm American by the grace of God, German by heritage. You're not an idiot, are you?

That would be the *Roman* empire, with a lot of help from the Greeks, Scandihoovians and Germans. Buncha pagans.

Well, it can probably be said that everyone was a "pagan" at one time or another. Most civilized cultures overcame that shortcoming a few millennia ago. Shame not all of them did ...

[IronJack]

Under your overblown definition, every moral issue in the country derives from Christian roots. So be it. Then every CRIME in the country derives from a failure to pay allegiance to those Christian roots.

So Christians represent morality. And those opposed to Christianity represent ... ?

[orionblamblam]

> 2) The phrase was placed on US coinage by act of Congress in December of 1863.

I should have been more explicit. The lame "In God We Trust" was made the national motto in 1956 (guess what: a poem does not define national mottos), and it didn't show up permanently on paper money till '57.

>> It replaced the much more accurate and magnificent E Pluribus Unum.

> Bzzzzt. Another loser. "E Pluribus Unum" is still used on American currency.

BZZZZT, wrong again: "IGWT" repalced "EPU" as national motto in '56. The fact that EPU is still occaisionally used does not change the fact that it was usurped by something far, far lamer.

> The document that literally asserted the independence of this nation, detaching it forever from the sovereignty of Great Britain and establishing a "new order of Nature" is not a framing document?

It is not. It in no way defines what sort of nation the US would be, how it would be governed, what the laws and rights were... nothing.

> I said that the Board was free to select the Moonbat ... er, I mean, "priestess" for the invocation, then leave the room.

Then they should nto be let in. if the prayer is an official part of the proceedings, then they should attend, or give up their taxpayer-funded jobs. If it's *not* an official part of the proceedings.... then they should *pay* for the priveledge of using their time for personal purposes.

> since you seem to want to fixate on this trivial aspect of law

Where things coem from is *not* trival. Would you complain if Muslims started spouting that all of Western Civ was cribbed from the Caliphate?

To claim that the law came from a purely or even largely Christian basis is simply a *lie.* It's bearing false witness. I seem to recall that some religions frown on that.

> It is arguable that Saxon law was defined by the Capitulary of Charlemagne (the HOLY ROMAN EMPORER Charlemagne, that is) in 775 A.D.

Irrelevant. We're talking about England, and the introduction of Saxon law in the 500's. But you already know that, don't you?

> You're not an idiot, are you?

Nope. Not been suckered in by the same ideology that you have.

> Your Saxon diversion notwithstanding, we are a Christian nation. Period.

OK. Where is that laid out in the Constitution?

> Well, it can probably be said that everyone was a "pagan" at one time or another. Most civilized cultures overcame that shortcoming a few millennia ago.

And then discovered the "civilized" practice of holy war, inquisition, and fraudulently claiming that the achievements of pagans before them are actually their own.

[orionblamblam]

> If Christians can't be honest about history or campaign promises, how do they expect us to trust anything they say about current problems?


That's the problem we as Conservatives face. If we have so many member promulgating obvious utter rubbish such as this and the ID fraud, how can we expect the public to believe that Conservatives are *generally* honest? We could lose the nation to the Liberals because a bunch of Conservatives want to get their panties in a bunch over silly crap like this Wiccan or basic science.

[mugs99]

Under your overblown definition

The facts aren't mine. They belong to history and are easily verifiable. Every single morality crusade in American history, that has taken liberties from us, began as a Christian morality crusade to protect us from ourselves.

So Christians represent morality. And those opposed to Christianity represent ... ?

No, they represent their own version of morality. Those opposed to crusaders represent the morality of the God who gave us the gifts of reason and freedom.
.

[mugs99]

We could lose the nation to the Liberals because a bunch of Conservatives want to get their panties in a bunch over silly crap like this Wiccan or basic science.

We have lost our nation. The USSC eminent domain decision has replaced republicanism with communism. We should be happy, I guess. We are the very first capitalist communism country in history...Also known as "the third way" by the Clinton administration.
.

[orionblamblam]

> We are the very first capitalist communism country in history.

Second, with China leading the way in the opposite direction.

[IronJack]

I should have been more explicit. The lame "In God We Trust" was made the national motto in 1956 (guess what: a poem does not define national mottos), and it didn't show up permanently on paper money till '57.

Do you want to define your terms increasingly more narrow until you have just the definition you want? It's a common forensic device among those who can't debate substance and choose to argue rhetoric instead. The fact is, the sentiment reflected in the motto "In God We Trust" has been around at least since the mid nineteenth century, if not the founding of the country. I'm sure that it's pure coincidence that the words Francis Scott Key used in the anthem were the same used in the motto on US coinage. And I'm equally sure it's coincidence that the language Key used is almost identical to that used in the final paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.

BZZZZT, wrong again: "IGWT" repalced "EPU" as national motto in '56. The fact that EPU is still occaisionally used does not change the fact that it was usurped by something far, far lamer.

If "occasionally" means on every single dollar bill in circulation in the world, then yes, I'm "wrong." However, that numbers somewhere in the billions, if not trillions of occurrences, so I'm not sure that "occasionally" would be an apt adverb. By the way, all other documents that bear the Great Seal also bear the phrase. Which adds to the "occasions" on which it occurs.

It [the Declaration of Independence] in no way defines what sort of nation the US would be, how it would be governed, what the laws and rights were... nothing.

Nothing? Not at all? So the second paragraph ("We hold these truths to be self-evident ...") and the ensuing list of grievances don't define what a government should and should not be? They don't establish a moral framework for the separation of the Colonies from England and the institution of a new government among men, "deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed?" Darn! I knew I should have learned to read English at Humpty Dumpty's school, where words mean exactly what you want them to mean.

By the way, this country celebrates the anniversary of its founding on July 4th, from the date the Declaration of Independence was published, not the date the Constitution was ratified. Not only is the Declaration A defining document, it is THE defining document of our country. The Constitution is Chapter Two.

Then they should nto be let in. if the prayer is an official part of the proceedings, then they should attend, or give up their taxpayer-funded jobs. If it's *not* an official part of the proceedings.... then they should *pay* for the priveledge of using their time for personal purposes.

"Not be let in" to what? Their own chamber? Let me get this straight. The Wookie ... er, I should have said Wiccan ... gets to come into the chamber, but the people who are holding the meeting don't? Are you trying a new medication for the first time?

If the prayer is an official part of the proceedings, why should they be required to attend? If they find the invocation offensive, shouldn't your liberal tolerance permit them to leave the room, rather than being subjected to such corrupting influences? Or does that just apply to Christian invocations?

Would you complain if Muslims started spouting that all of Western Civ was cribbed from the Caliphate?

Yes, because it's not true.

To claim that the law came from a purely or even largely Christian basis is simply a *lie.*

No, it's not. I've proven that. Your opinion doesn't make it fact.

It's bearing false witness. I seem to recall that some religions frown on that.

Wicca?

Irrelevant. We're talking about England, and the introduction of Saxon law in the 500's.

Once again, we redefine the ground rules until we've got things exactly where we want them.

You can't have it both ways. Either Saxon laws -- including the Capitulate -- defined English law or they didn't. I daresay the evolution of English common law stemming from post-Charlemagne days more powerfully influenced Jefferson et. al. than pre-Charlemagne custom.

Not been suckered in by the same ideology that you have.

You know nothing about my ideology. But if you are an adherent of Wonka ... er, I meant Wicca ... then you probably shouldn't be talking about "suckers."

Where is that laid out in the Constitution?

It isn't. The Constitution is a legal document. A nation is more than the sum of its laws.

And then discovered the "civilized" practice of holy war, inquisition, and fraudulently claiming that the achievements of pagans before them are actually their own.

All "sins" committed 500 to 800 years ago. Can't you come up with anything more recent? By the way, one of the common practices of pagan religions is human sacrifice. So they're not exactly without their warts either.

It's always interesting on these threads to know when to break off a discussion. Too early and you seem to concede the ground. Too late and you just seem to belabor the point. You're obviously not going to change your mind, so I'm not sure there's much point in going on with this. My original assertion was that the Board should invite the Wobbly ... darn! I mean Wiccan wacko ... drat! I mean "priestess" ... to address the assembly, then walk out the door and let her jabber for her allotted two minutes, then reconvene. I see nothing in any of this argle-bargle that changes my position.

[mugs99]

Second, with China leading the way in the opposite direction

Lol...
I forgot about China! Things sure are strange these days. China makes a capitalist bid on Unocal and then lectures us on free markets after our government illegally orders the high bid rejected!
.

[IronJack]

The facts aren't mine. They belong to history and are easily verifiable. Every single morality crusade in American history, that has taken liberties from us, began as a Christian morality crusade to protect us from ourselves.

Abolitionism was a "morality crusade." Our very War of Independence was a "morality crusade." Both World Wars were "morality crusades," as were fair labor laws, public libraries, and women's suffrage. Not to mention the Civil Rights movements. A mixed bag, maybe. But you can't lay all corruption at the door of Christian morality.

Have there been abuses? Of course. But if morality can be made the servant of tyrants, how much more easily can amorality be induced to serve that role?

Those opposed to crusaders represent the morality of the God who gave us the gifts of reason and freedom.

In their own minds, I'm sure they do. And in Mussolini's mind, it was worth whatever the cost to make the trains run on time.

Nobody is forcing anyone to stay for the Board's invocation. And if the Loon Lobby wants to do a two-minute stint, let them. Just get up and leave the room.

[mugs99]

All "sins" committed 500 to 800 years ago. Can't you come up with anything more recent?

The Christian ethnic cleansing of Jews in Europe wasn't a sin?
.

[DaveTesla]

More for you...


1.From the founding Fathers of our Country:


"Such being the impressions under which I have, in
obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present
station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this
first official act, my fervent supplications to that
Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides
in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can
supply every human defect, that His benediction may
consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of
the United States.." "...Every step by which
they have advanced to the character of an independent
nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of
providential agency" From President George
Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789,
addressed to both Houses of Congress.

President Washingtons Thanksgiving Day Proclamation, 1789

2. "It is impossible to rightly govern the world
without God and the Bible"President George
Washington, September 17th, 1796

3. "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to
political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." President George Washington

4. "...The Smiles of Heaven can never be expected On a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of Order and Right, which Heaven Itself Ordained."President George Washington


5. "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?"Benjamin Franklin

6. "Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this."Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention

7. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." President James Madison


8. "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."Noah Webster

9. "Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others."Patrick Henry

10. "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."Patrick Henry

11. "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."President Thomas Jefferson

12. "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."President Thomas Jefferson

13. "Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813


14. "We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions ubridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."John Adams, address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798.

15. "I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..."President Thomas Jefferson

16. "The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."President John Adams

17. "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land."James Madison

18. "We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." President James Madison

19. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay

20. "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court

21. "Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools."Benjamin Rush

22. "It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."President John Quincy Adams

23. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity."President John Quincy Adams

24. "a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public" First Lady Abigail Adams

25. "The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests."President Andrew Jackson

26. "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book.Abraham Lincoln

27. Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address

"Fellow countrymen: At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first...The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured...
"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and as a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other...The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully...If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?

Fondly do we hope - fervently do we pray - that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'The judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'

"With malice toward none; charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan - to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations." Immediately afterwards, Lincoln kissed the Bible, bowed, and retired from the platform. Abraham Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address, March 4th, 1865.

28. "Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty" Abraham Lincoln.

29. "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." Abraham Lincoln.

30. "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion."Abraham Lincoln.

31. "The New Testament is the very best that ever was or ever will be known in the world." Charles Dickens

32. "Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teaching of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that is should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian . . . this is a Christian nation."US Supreme Court, 1892

33. "If the Moral character of a people degenerate, their political character must follow. These considerations should lead to an attentive solicitude to be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers...and judge of the tree by its fruits." Elias Boudinot

35. Beginnings.......

It is hoped that by God's assistance, some of the continents in the Ocean will be discovered....for the Glory of God. Christopher Columbus

The Mayflower Compact, November 11th, 1620


36. "All persons living in this province, who confess and acknowledge the One Almighty and Eternal God to be the Creator, Upholder, and Ruler of the world, and that hold themselves obliged in conscience to live peaceably and justly in civil society, shall in no wise be molested or prejudiced for their religious persuasion or practice, in matters of faith and worship; nor shall they be compelled at any time to frequent or maintain any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever." April 25, 1662- William Penn signed this to establish religious liberty in the new provence of (Pennsylvania).


Excerpts from the Declaration to take up arms, July 6th, 1775
Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776

37. "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.","Give me liberty or give me death."Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention

38. "A general dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole Force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader . . . If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security."Samuel Adams, 1779

[little jeremiah]

Christian ethnic cleansing of Jews? What exactly are you referring to?

[little jeremiah]

I call your attitude "swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat".

Wiccans - who actually practice whatever it is they practice - are a few thousand, maybe? And it's an invented crock of nonsense anyway. No one is advocating preventing this supposed witch from doing anything legal. But there is no reason why any elected body of people (or unelected for that matter) should be forced to listen to her. If she wants a platform, she should either find a group of people who want to listen to her by hiring her own hall, getting her own coven, getting her own soapbox and taking it to the town square, or putting an ad in the paper and having Wiccan gatherings at her house.

If, for instance, my elderly mother had been Wiccan, and wanted me to attend a Wiccan ceremony, I would probably have attended with the same politeness as I attended her church. That is an entirely different situation than a Board meeting of people who decide they'd like the refreshment of a prayer before work. Why should anyone of any religion be allowed to force themselves on people who don't want to listen, any more than you or I should be forced to attend any religious (or other) ceremony we don't wish to attend?

[IronJack]

The Christian ethnic cleansing of Jews in Europe wasn't a sin?

Would that be the pogroms of Phillip II of Spain? Surely you aren't referring to the Nazi Holocaust??!! If even YOUR ... expanded ... vision of Christian liability extends that far, then every evil committed anywhere in the universe can be laid at Christianty's feet.

There was nothing CHRISTIAN in the Holocaust. Just because the Nazis were not Jews doesn't mean they were Christians. In fact, their Gothic heroic model came much more from the pagan tradition than from anything Luther taught.

Sheesh!