Hmm. Where have we heard
that type of thinking before?
"Senseless" folks can win!
Posted on 08/04/2005 7:57:17 AM PDT by Reborn
Thanks for your help, Condi.
Nathan, I'm a Believer also, and I know that you can find as many different interpretations of Prophesy as you can ice cream flavors. The question I was asking wasn't so much a "spiritual" one as a secular one. If I was a secular Jew in Israel or anywhere for that matter, how can I NOT see that giving away Land for Peace is only rewarding terrorism? How can a secular Jew just sit on their backside while the a Corrupt government sells their partying souls down the river. These Arab "neighbors" are like circling sharks, and throwing 'em a piece of blood covered flesh once in a while is only going to egg them on and draw even more sharks and attacks. I don't live in Israel so I don't know what is in the mind of the average secular Israeli. I know that the media keeps trying to play this off as a "secular vs rabid settlers" thing, but it is so far beyond that. The blindness is just amazing I guess. I've been reading Israeli news everyday since 2000. It's as if the Israelis (by and large) have all quietly died in their souls from the constant bombings, as if they've become numb to reality or something. I dunno. It's just amazing to me.
Some U.S. Lawmakers Uneasy Over Gaza Plan Posted 8/3/2005
By Avraham Shmuel Lewin
TEL AVIV – Rep. Dan Burton, an Indiana Republican regarded as one of the most security-minded members of the House, has expressed his concern over the effect of the Gaza pullout on U.S. interests in the Middle East and the war on terrorism.
Burton, a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, is one of several lawmakers who view the Israeli withdrawal as a victory for terrorism both over the Jewish state and the United States.
"Personally, I will not second guess the prime minister`s wisdom," Burton said in a recent House speech. "I very much hope that he is right. But again, my experience tells me that if you take steps to appease an enemy you only give him a green light to put more pressure on you. In my opinion, it is imperative and critical to U.S. national security that we as policymakers understand the consequences should the Israeli disengagement plan fail to live up to expectations."
Burton added that he has "watched the often turbulent goings on in the Middle East for a few years to say the least, and my experience tells me that our optimism should be tempered by the lessons of the past. In fact, I believe we should take a very cautious view of the current round of Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking, particularly with regard to Israel`s withdrawal from Gaza and parts of the West Bank."
Burton drew the attention of Congress to a recent paper issued by former Israeli diplomat Yoram Ettinger demonstrating that Israel`s territorial concessions after the Oslo Accords harmed U.S. vital interests in the region and triggered global terrorism.
"Nobody in the Republican-controlled Congress wants to be seen as opposing the wishes of both Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the Bush administration, Ettinger told The Jewish Press this week. But quietly, the unilateral Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip is making some prominent House and Senate members nervous."
Over the past few weeks, these legislators have been briefed by leading Israeli and U.S. strategists on the impact of the Israeli pullout. The briefers have not been unanimous in their assessment. But virtually all raised the prospect of the Gaza Strip turning into another Somalia, or a terrorist haven hosted by a dysfunctional Palestinian Authority. The terrorists would certainly include members of the Iranian-sponsored Hizbullah as well as Al Qaeda.
One scenario envisions Abu Mussib Al Zarqawi using the Gaza Strip to recruit Palestinians for the Sunni insurgency in Iraq as well as for operations in neighboring Jordan. Another scenario has Gaza being used as a launching pad for attacks on U.S. and NATO shipping in the eastern Mediterranean.
Ettinger said that "the morally and strategically justifiable demolition of terror regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan is inconsistent with the creation and bolstering of a terror regime in Gaza, Judea and Samaria."
Sharon s pullout from Gaza, he added, "is in sharp contrast to the U.S. war on terrorism because disengagement is perceived, in the Mideast, as cut and run, appeasement and cave-in."
Asked why President Bush was pushing for it, Ettinger replied, "When I visited Washington recently, I was told that President Bush was and is against this disengagement but it ws Sharon who pressured him. The tradition in Washington is that the administration does not second guess an Israeli prime minister. There was therefore no real deliberations on how this plan would affect U.S. interests in the region."
Ettinger warned that the pullout will not be a stepping board to peace but a setback to peace because the only peace attainable in the Mideast is deterrence – driven peace. "Disengagement undermines deterrence. Every square inch ceded by Israel to the PA, since the 1994 disengagement, has been transformed into a platform of hate – education and homicide bombing," he said.
http://www.jewishpress.com/news_article.asp?article=5196
While I can agree with the "secular" sentiments, I can't with the "many different interpretations of prophacy" statement.
There is only one, and it's been proven over and over again.
I completely agree from a secular point of view, with what you say. But what is the solution?
As Mind-numbed Robot stated, this can be seen as a strategy.
We know darn well that the Muslims aren't going to stop attacking for very long. It's spelled out clearly in their Hamas charter what their plans are.
So how do we turn world opinion around, and give Israel a new mandate from "the king of Babalon"? (think of the king of babalon as the world body) Make a sacrafice, then when they violate it, Israel may well have a new mandate, and world favor.
I know, I've been down the same path. Finally you just get tired and baffled at the complete blindness, the lies of media and the Arab world.
So you look for something that helps you make sense of it all. Then when you see things moving in that direction, you see that there is a bigger force in this world that cannot be messed with, not without consequence at least.
Okay, continue to bear with me brother, once again I'm talking/thinking secular Jew over there right now. If I was a secular Jew over in Israel I'd be, first off, taking to the streets to pull down Sharon's kingdom. I'd get someone in office who would have the guts to say, as Arik did in the beginning before the SCANDAL virus got ahold of him, that Israel wasn't going to budge ONE MORE INCH towards any Roadmap UNTIL ALL THE TERRORISTS IN "PA LAND" WERE ROUNDED UP AND THE TERRORIST ATTACKS STOPPED! This is how it was in the beginning, but somewhere along the way, the Israelis have become the "evil victim" who deserves to be "raped" over and over again because they are ugly or some other stupid left wing type of reason.
It's as if Israel is silently marching into (not ovens this time but) the sea. Oh yes, I know the Biblical reasons on this, but I'm just speaking of the average tennis playing Jew in Tel Aviv. As you say, we know that the PLO, Hamas, etc, isn't going to stop their attacks. So, IF a new PM in Israel said NO to anymore stuff UNTIL all the other demands on the Palis were met, then it would be a stalemate and the terrorists would have to go for it all in one huge attack, just as they are going to do shortly (imho) anyway. Not only are the terrorists NOT turning in their weapons, but Condi asked Israel to give weapons to the PA. Arafat must be smiling in his grave, sheesh. I dunno. Anyway, I appreciate your views, thanks for sharing them. :-)
Hey, I didn't see your reply #25 until after my latest post! But yes, your reply is IT in a nutshell. Thanks Nathan. :-)
Hey, I didn't see your reply #25 until after my latest post! But yes, your reply is IT in a nutshell. Thanks Nathan. :-)
I know, my secular side says nuke Mecca, Iran, and every other trouble spot too.
I hope cooler heads prevail however. If Sharons way fails, (it will) at least Israel will be completely justified creating a wide pile of rumble surrounding their borders.
Hopefully Israel will have much more support throughout the world by then.
Opinions are changing in the world, people are waking up. If they don't, then scripture continues along it's way, prophacies get fullfilled. Only faith can slow that down.
Only two things can happen, maybe 3. things will get better, or things will get worse, or things wil get worse before they get better.
"Nobody in the Republican-controlled Congress wants to be seen as opposing the wishes of both Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the Bush administration, Ettinger (former Israeli diplomat Yoram Ettinger) told The Jewish Press this week.
Asked why President Bush was pushing for it, Ettinger replied, "When I visited Washington recently, I was told that President Bush was and is against this disengagement but it was Sharon who pressured him. The tradition in Washington is that the administration does not second guess an Israeli prime minister. There was therefore no real deliberations on how this plan would affect U.S. interests in the region."
In contrast, I saw Sharon not long ago on TV responding to an on-the-fly question from a reporter as Sharon walked hurridly past, "I am not doing this for the terrorists. I am doing this for President Bush."
First, there is no place for a "Palestinian State" unless Israel gives up the "disputed territories". Jordan is the natural place as that is what was intended originally, but Jordan says no and we won't press them because of their importance to us in the region. Egypt nor any one else in the area is willing to give any. So, Israel gives in and eliminates two complaints at once - the argument about the "disputed territories" and the cry for a "Palestinian State". If the "Palestinians" conduct themselves peacefully while suppressing the terrorists in their territory everything is fine. If they don't and the terror we all expect continues then the table will have been cleared for Israel to take the necessary action without our interference.
Burton and all others are worrying that the terror will continue with Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. They are probably right but they fail to anticipate the next move in this chess game.
Right on. Let's just hope Sharon can get that across to Israeli's. This could turn out to be a very temporary "retreat" in the long run.
By golly you're right! LOL!!! ;-)
I love that graphic.
The problem with looking at things from an "Arab history" point of view, is that you must ignore all other history, pre- and post- Islam. Even post Islam, "Palestine", the region, was still largely Christian and Jewish. Pre- Islam, Jewish and Christian. Palestine wasn't even called palestine until the Romans changed the name.
Multiple rock worshipers,Muhammad being one of them (Allah being one of the rock gods), Sabians, Hanif's (where Muhammad got the first name of his god, Ar-Rahman, from) and a variety of others, come from the Saudi region, and were eventualy the invaders.
Arabs themselves aren't a 'pure race, but rather a mixed batch; Himyarites, Æthiopians, Hamitic and other foriegn elements. Muhammad's cult is based on a whole mix of things, myths, jewish legend, etc.
It's hard to believe that people can even consider Islam a real religion.
Here's a good breakdown of it.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Tisdall/Sources/chap2.htm
The genius of it is that once the "Palestinians" have a real state with actual geography, that phony excuse for war is gone.
1938
The genius of it is that once the Germans have repatriated all of their people from Czechoslovakia, that phony excuse for war is gone.
Sorry, but I'm not buying into what is, at its core, an attempt to appease a bunch of terrorists. Terrorists who, by the way, have shown every bit as much of an intent to stop and be satisfied by the morsels thrown to them as Hitler was by the morsels thrown his way.
Do you truly think Israel is trying to appease the PLO? Do you think that if the attacks don't stop after a "Palestinbian State" is formed that Israel will just hunker down and take it? That is the obvious conclusion to what you say so what in Israel's background makes you think that? I see nothing.
The only reason they haven't destroyed their enemies in the past is because we have held them back. That had been the position of the US from the beginning and it was for Bush at first, who simply continued what we had been doing. 9/11 and our response to it stopped that, especially when Sharon pointed out to Bush that he was simply doing the same as we were doing to protect ourselves. I think the appeasement is over.
Hmm. Where have we heard
that type of thinking before?
"Senseless" folks can win!
Hitler's great ability was to couch his demands in a moderate cloak; for example, he demanded an end to the restrictions imposed on Germany after WWI, restrictions that all but fools realized were unworkable.
The Palestinians have never mastered this trick.
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