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Smoking ban has Appleton (Wisconsin) fuming
THE CAPITAL TIMES ^ | 08/02/2005 | AP

Posted on 08/02/2005 10:24:13 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist

APPLETON (AP) - At Jokers Bar, the staff of eight has been laid off. Owner Tony Schaefer said he's now working the bar with his brother.

Schaefer is among many business owners still fuming a month after a ban on smoking at all indoor workplaces was enacted in this city.

The ban was approved by 56 percent of voters in an April 5 referendum and went into effect on July 1. Madison's similar smoking ban went into effect on the same day, although there was no referendum preceding it.

"We'll be closing up" if business doesn't improve, Schaefer said. "The sad thing is we don't even know if anyone would buy it."

Some say they have reason to fume.

Nearly three-quarters of the 64 businesses that responded to a request from the Appleton Post-Crescent reported sluggish sales in the past month, most from 10 to 40 percent lower compared with last July. Some reported sales off as much as 70 percent.

Many tavern owners in Madison have made similar complaints, and sympathetic members of the City Council have already tried once, unsuccessfully, to repeal the ban.

More than 30 tavern owners in Appleton have filed a lawsuit to repeal the ban, and the Common Council this month is expected to review a proposal that would exempt taverns and bar areas of restaurants, similar to a measure proposed statewide.

For now, sales are down 35 percent at Shark's Club Billiards Bar and Grill, owner Mitchell Roepke said.

"We're a blue-collar, working-class establishment and they're the smokers. ... I'm losing $11,000 in sales in July," Roepke said.

But Connie Olson, executive director of Community Action for Tobacco Free Living, a group that pushed for the ban, said some of the negative talk becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

"All customers hear are bartenders complaining. Who wants to hear that?" Olson said. "They have to get past this personal vendetta. Don't do that to customers. They need to promote their businesses as smoke-free."

Restaurants reported faring better than bars.

Family restaurants like Applebee's and Perkins, and upscale places like Black and Tan, where smoking had previously been allowed at the bar, saw no ill effect in their July revenues.

At The Bar in downtown Appleton, regular lunchtime diner Carl Schuh of Black Creek compared before and after.

"It's cleaner, fresher and airier," he said.

Several businesses said they were boosting advertising and offering specials to encourage customers to come back, while still lobbying officials for a reversal on the ban.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: antismoking; appleton; bars; busybodies; nightclubs; smokingban
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To: MplsSteve
"These smokers can step outside and have a cancer stick if they want to. Many bars have set up a small area where smokers can go if they want to light up"

I put my coat on to go out for a smoke when it is 20 degrees out...I just keep going and get in my car and go home. I can't take my drink oustide with me, and it's 20 degrees.

I'm outside having a smoke and I have to listen to you whinny non-smokers complaining that you have to wade through the smokers to get in the place too.

21 posted on 08/02/2005 10:43:53 AM PDT by Ouderkirk (Funny how death and destruction seems to happen wherever Muslims gather...)
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To: MplsSteve

I had heard some grumbling that the law may change here in Hennepin because of the loss of revenue (i.e. taxes) for the city (since they could care less about bar owners).

As a former smoker, I enjoy the clear air as much as the next, but still say that every bar has the right to decide if its a smoking bar or not. If the person doesn't like the fact that a bar is a smoking bar, go find one that isn't. Works the other way too.


22 posted on 08/02/2005 10:44:30 AM PDT by MNlurker
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To: MinnesotaLibertarian

Unfortunately, the free market works too slowly for those who wish to force their socialist agenda on the rest of us.


23 posted on 08/02/2005 10:44:50 AM PDT by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

"They have to get past this personal vendetta. Don't do that to customers. They need to promote their businesses as smoke-free."

While literally no one objects to smoke free eating establishments, taverns are a DIFFERANT thing altogether. God save us all from the sort of asshats who impose this sort of thing on us. The thing about people like Connie Olson is that they will not be happy until they prevent you from smoking in your own home as well.


24 posted on 08/02/2005 10:48:22 AM PDT by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: MinnesotaLibertarian
Plenty of places banned smoking before they were required to by law.

EXACTLY..........and that was true in nearly every area that has instituted one of these property taking bans.

25 posted on 08/02/2005 10:49:28 AM PDT by Gabz (WalMart bashers are NEA/Union thugs)
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To: razoroccam
Problem is that I get taxed to fund Medicare, Medicaid, etc so that those who choose to smoke can then get treated for bronchitis, lung cancer, MI, TIA, stroke, etc.

And the governments already tax the crap out of smokers to pay for that. In Fact the Congressinal Research Service determined many years ago (before all of the increased cig taxes) that smokers already paid more into the system than they will ever take out of it.

26 posted on 08/02/2005 10:52:26 AM PDT by Gabz (WalMart bashers are NEA/Union thugs)
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To: Ouderkirk
I'm outside having a smoke and I have to listen to you whinny non-smokers complaining that you have to wade through the smokers to get in the place too.

Therein lies the busybodies' insanity. Lots of people standing outside smoking on the sidewalks. I mean, isn't that still polluting the air? What about global warming? (LOL)

27 posted on 08/02/2005 10:53:32 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (If there was a problem, yo! I'll solve it!!)
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To: razoroccam
Problem is that I get taxed to fund Medicare, Medicaid, etc so that those who choose to smoke can then get treated for bronchitis, lung cancer, MI, TIA, stroke, etc.

Although I agree with you and oppose socialist wealth redistribution programs in principle, smokers actually cost less in health care costs, because they die sooner, while non-smokers can rack up huge health care bills in managed end-of-life care for decades. (On average.)

28 posted on 08/02/2005 10:56:54 AM PDT by coloradan (Hence, etc.)
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To: razoroccam

"Problem is that I get taxed to fund Medicare, Medicaid, etc so that those who choose to smoke can then get treated for bronchitis, lung cancer, MI, TIA, stroke, etc."

What an idiotic statement.

Don't worry, the government will take care of you. All will be fine.


29 posted on 08/02/2005 10:57:23 AM PDT by ndafill
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To: MplsSteve
say steve go 150 north and see how all the little bars/restaurants are making out with the smoking ban in Duluth. I hear the surrounding communities are during a great bar/restaurant business
30 posted on 08/02/2005 11:02:24 AM PDT by markman46
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To: razoroccam
Problem is that I get taxed to fund Medicare, Medicaid, etc so that those who choose to smoke can then get treated for bronchitis, lung cancer, MI, TIA, stroke, etc.

Yeah, and I get taxed to pay for people who choose to engage in sexual behaviour that leads to Aids and other diseases, abortions to which I'm opposed and liver transplants for boozers that hang out in "smoke free" bars for their health.

If anything, smokers are getting screwed because they pay into a Social Security System from which they may never collect. I think non-smokers should have to pay a higher SS premium since they will be collecting more benefits over a longer period of time.

31 posted on 08/02/2005 11:03:01 AM PDT by Attillathehon
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To: ndafill

"Don't worry, the government will take care of you. All will be fine"

What an idiotic statement.


32 posted on 08/02/2005 11:03:26 AM PDT by razoroccam (Then in the name of Allah, they will let loose the Germs of War (http://www.booksurge.com))
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To: Attillathehon

"Yeah, and I get taxed to pay for people who choose to engage in sexual behaviour that leads to Aids and other diseases, abortions to which I'm opposed and liver transplants for boozers that hang out in "smoke free" bars for their health."

I agree, which is why the government should get out of the health care business (Medicare and Medicaid). And also the retirement business (Social Security) while they are at it. People should be responsible for their own health and finances.


33 posted on 08/02/2005 11:06:21 AM PDT by razoroccam (Then in the name of Allah, they will let loose the Germs of War (http://www.booksurge.com))
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To: razoroccam
Problem is that I get taxed to fund Medicare, Medicaid, etc so that those who choose to smoke can then get treated for bronchitis, lung cancer, MI, TIA, stroke, etc.

You undoubtably would have no problem, then, with the government regulating other unhealthy behaviors? Banning high-fat food sales in restaraunts? Alcohol sales? And why stop at restaraunts and bars- if it is good to regulate unhealthy behaviors on the premise that these behaviors impact your pocketbook via taxes, then why not regulate these behaviors in people's homes??
34 posted on 08/02/2005 11:07:55 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc

See post 32


35 posted on 08/02/2005 11:09:22 AM PDT by razoroccam (Then in the name of Allah, they will let loose the Germs of War (http://www.booksurge.com))
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

It's funny.
I know exactly what's going on here with all these anti-smoking laws, and I've never heard anyone else get it just right, so I'll say it.

Every kid who grew up in the 50s or 60s or 70s, grew up with parents who smoked. It was a universal thing.

And every kid grew up trapped inside of cars full of smoke on long car trips, etc., unable to get away from the smoke.

Now, some kids didn't care.
But a whole lot of them did.
A lot.
And their complaints all fell on deaf ears. Parents were parents, and they wanted to smoke, and kids were kids and would just have to shut up and deal with it.
Power prevailed.

Now all those kids are adults.
And we live in a democracy, where power prevails.

The anti-smoking zeal is NOT just aimed at health.
It's not really aimed at big business.
It's aimed at these kids' parents, many of whom are long since gone. The contemporary smoker is here, now, and invokes all of that animus that all of those kids trapped in smoky cars and houses had back then. The smoker stands in loco parentis.

The fact that smokers scream and bitch so much just makes the imposition of laws on them more delicious to the adult kids who were trapped in smoke-filled cars. Baby grew up and now is in charge, and can impose on the parents who used to impose on him.

That's why it's so mean, so obsessive, and why the anti-smoking lobby is so UTTERLY uncompromising, and so UTTERLY enjoys hearing the smokers scream and whine.

It's called "turnabout", and in a democracy it is, alas, fair play.


36 posted on 08/02/2005 11:10:41 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: DuckFan4ever
It's been great for everyone.

Except those who cherish private property rights. I'm not a smoker, and I see daily the effects of smoking in my patients. But they are all adults, and have made their choice. Same for anyone who CHOOSES to walk into an establishment where smoking is allowed. If there is a market for non-smoking establishments, believe me, they will be created. This power-grab by local governments is unconstitutional, and I have yet to see any rational argument to support local smoking bans.
37 posted on 08/02/2005 11:13:13 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: MplsSteve

remember this post when you favorite bar closes...


38 posted on 08/02/2005 11:13:57 AM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: coloradan; Gabz

Do you have any data to back that up? An AMA study that showed that though smokers lived less than non-smokers, they used the health care significantly more. Thus, medical dollars use during life x life expentancy of smokers >> medical dollars use during life x life expentancy of non-smokers.


39 posted on 08/02/2005 11:18:27 AM PDT by razoroccam (Then in the name of Allah, they will let loose the Germs of War (http://www.booksurge.com))
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To: armydoc

Your common sense will fall upon deaf ears when it comes to the ban supporting crowd. They have no concept of the idea of private property rights. They are of the wrongful idea that if an establishment owner invites the public into the premises the establishment owner no longer has any rights.


40 posted on 08/02/2005 11:18:30 AM PDT by Gabz (WalMart bashers are NEA/Union thugs)
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