Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 12

Various News Outlets | 8/2/05

[Vn_survivor_67-68]

Appleton....John Birch Society originated there.....the "get US out of the UB" folks.

[Vn_survivor_67-68]

the "get US out of the UB" folks.

whoops

the "get US out of the UN" folks.

[cajungirl]

Good poem and thought. Would I? I don't know but I wonder if the choice was given to the HT's what they would do.

I just don't know.

I would let him plea down to give up her body.

[PBRSTREETGANG]

I've given up on Jossy.

I think he's just saying stuff to sell papers and/or serve some other personal agenda.

[Froufrou]

Thank you! I'm pinging myself for later as I imagine this will take awhile.

What's your take on these posts?

[Froufrou]

Oops, my bad! Thanks for pointing it out. I'm sure she's doing the best she can, given the lack of information from the ALE. And Jossy, who won't he dig up to witness something? Not easy for Greta, I'm sure.

[xnphn]

In that case, it would make more sense for them to set up the death as having been accidental, and trust to JVDS's connections to make that explanation stick. That would certainly be better for them than this wall-to-wall media coverage and body search, whether the body is there to be found or not.

[mel]

You are absolutely right, frequently, I am trying to read a post and it starts in some catfight, it is downhill from there. Too bad, FR used to be the best

[photodawg]

What if she died as a result of something they had not planned?
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I'm not arguing that those guys "couldn't have killed her. I'm simply saying that in the absence of any physical evidence at all, that maybe she is not "DEAD". The possibility exists that these guys were involved in a scheme designed to get Natalie to someone who would use her for his purposes. Let's try to think outside the box. She's a beautiful girl, many would pay handsomely to have access to her. If the three friends had this in mind when they took her, then they can never be tried for a murder that wasn't committed, there would be no physical evidence, and most importantly, Natalie is still alive somewhere being abused. If authorities investigated this possibility they would only need to check neighboring ports, during the time frame following the disappearance, also flight schedules , passenger lists etc. This should have been done anyway, there is nothing to lose following this line of inquiry. Young people are abducted all the time for all kinds of reasons.

[Froufrou]

I agree. The surveillance tape being either broken or turned off at the time the boys said they returned NH to HI is just too concidental. Even if they had not done this before, they obviously had it planned and had help from another source.

SandraK at SM has posted that Steve Croes now DJ's for Carlos and Charlies. I wonder what other ships he worked for before the Tatoo?

And a police officer telling Greta that NH must have left the island on her own? Because they've found nothing? They haven't found anything because they haven't looked.

[Froufrou]

"If authorities investigated this possibility they would only need to check neighboring ports, during the time frame following the disappearance, also flight schedules , passenger lists etc. This should have been done anyway, there is nothing to lose following this line of inquiry. Young people are abducted all the time for all kinds of reasons."

Lots of things should have been done that haven't been. The damage to Aruba and the Caribbean tourist industry is just the tip of the iceberg.

If the cruise ships don't get at the root of the problems their staff are causing, the cruise industry will be affected as well. And the staff are coming from the very places you refer to. Coincidence?

They've been raping and rolling passengers for years. Had enough practice now to take their show inland. Bosses everywhere look the other way. Nothing being done on Aruba. Nothing being done on the cruise ships. Look the other way.

[txrangerette]

Sympathy? Hardly. Please consider the context.

Another poster was doubting if JVDS and the Kalpoes would have planned a rape/murder, because to do so would not make any sense, to think they would easily escape justice.

My answer was a series of hypothetical situations, where they could have caused her death, but not necessarily set out to kill her. In the case of slipping her a drug, the idea would be to rape her but she would not remember what happened.

Horrible beyond words, yes, but not premeditated murder. That was my only point, in reply to the one who said they would never have planned to rape and murder her.

You imagined the sympathy, which I don't exactly appreciate, for obvious reasons.

[txrangerette]

Please see reply #432

[txrangerette]

Please see reply #432

[xnphn]

In any particular part of thread one? I'm curious as to why it appears to have been discounted. And, while we're at it, why isn't Aruba, whether government or people, more bent out of shape about this? Apart from the impact on the tourist dollar, the working theory appears to be that there is either a murderer on the loose, or else one about to be released for lack of evidence. Of course, if "everyone" on the island knows she's gone, and that Aruba LE is going through the motions, then it makes sense.

[txrangerette]

The father says, "no body, no case", at least that is the report we have seen. The father is a nervous, sweaty "pig", isn't he? He knows something, whether he was involved or not involved in her disappearance/death.

If they had a body, it would be very difficult, no matter Paulus's connections, to cover up if it had been intentional by claiming it was an accident. Not to mention, all the other scenarios would be out the window, no one could claim that somebody else might be responsible, that she might be kidnapped and in Venezuela, etc.

And the body would evoke tremendous anger and sympathy...here is the body of this beautiful young girl, her whole life ahead of her, and now her grieving family has only her dead body, thanks to these Aruban boys, accident or no accident, she was last with THEM.

I'm not making fun of your suggested possibility, because it is a remote option for them to try, in my mind. But I am listing some of the reasons I doubt they would go down that road.

Paulus VDS is one of the most pathetic cowards I have ever seen. I know he is under suspicion, and sweaty as heck, but I judge that he would rather be in this position than to have a body and be trying to help the boys get off with saying it was an accident.

They are all so slimey, putting Natalee's family, all of America and all of Aruba through this. Their "no body, no case" actions are lower than pond scum.

[texasbluebell]

Interesting...I just have a feeling that N's family would be happy to walk away from the whole dark game that is going on in Aruba, if only Natalee could come back home with them.

[xnphn]

I really do not disagree, for the most part. Perhaps it is merely a question of how risk averse PVDS and father VDS were. Certainly it is best to stonewall in the absence of a body or other incriminating forensic evidence. But to stonewall and have a body turn up is fatal. I do not see why the father, who seems reasonably intelligent and fairly sophisticated, would have been certain that whatever body disposal method they came up with in the short time available would be effective. Far better to spin a tale of sex and drugs, and blame the victim. Of course, if someone digs up or fishes out a body, I'll change theories.

[alice_in_bubbaland]

"SandraK at SM has posted that Steve Croes now DJ's for Carlos and Charlies. I wonder what other ships he worked for before the Tatoo?"

That's interesting, one of the last places Natalee was seen alive and now a former or possibly current suspect is employed there. Do you think her disapearance is connected w/C & C's or a worker there??? Payback for keeping one's mouth shut???

[rolling_stone]

What if she died as a result of something they had not planned? She had asthma. She had been drinking alcohol. If she was slipped a "date rape drug", which has been a common theory, she could have reacted by not breathing normally. Even unto death. Or suppose there was some unwanted advances, and she tried to get away, but slipped and fell, hitting her head very hard. Or suppose Joran and or the brothers became extremely angry at Natalee and tried to "subdue" her, not meaning to kill her, but did so accidentally.

All things considered, those are my thoughts of what happened, something bad happened, either someone drugged her or they tried to make advances and she resisted and either way she was killed because of their actions...

The rest of kidnapping and such is IMO a very slight possibility, with the only thing I see pointing in that direction is the fact that the three boys were seen sitting in their vehicle near the pond, as if waiting for something or someone. That and VDS gambling debts. But with the large reward, if she was kidnapped, someone would talk or she would be returned. Too many people would have to know something and the rewards would be worth the risk for some underling to talk.

PVDS telling them no body no crime points to her being dead and the body well hidden. Their story about her falling on the sidewalk as Mark Fuhrman so well put it points to an alibii for blunt head trauma if she was found. I think she was killed and put one place then moved when PVDS got involved. JMO.

As the parents put it the three or four know what happened to her. ALE botched it in the beginning either by ineptitude or corruption and it will take a near miracle to find her and convict the culprits and get Justice in a court of law now. The pond is still a possibility when it dries out. The weak link is probably Satish, and he is the one I would work on...

I wish I knew which brother got mad at the domino game when it was mentioned someone saw them in the care together early am.