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Let's Have No More Monkey Trials - To teach faith as science is to undermine both
Time Magazine ^ | Monday, Aug. 01, 2005 | CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER

Posted on 08/01/2005 10:58:13 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

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To: Rockingham

That may be so, but belief in evolution doesn't cause that attitude. Even given your argument the benefit of every question (and there are many, such as whether it is actually true that you would get more help in one community over another), you would have, at best, correlation. Disbelief in evolution and this "grace" stem from the same thing, but one does not cause the other. And given the fact that many Christians believe, to a greater or lesser degree, in evolution (mostly theistic evolution) and that many evolution-believing people are the nicest people you'd ever want to meet, it is a very loose correlation, at best.


1,181 posted on 08/03/2005 4:52:02 AM PDT by WildHorseCrash
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To: bethelgrad
Yes, I did. And if you ever got your head out of your ass and did some actual learning, you would realize that the Islamic religion is one in which the adherents believe that the religious tenets directly touches every aspect of existence. This is not something usually attributed to most Christians. That is what I was commenting on.

And if you are insulted by the use of Islamic, then you are a poor pathetic, ignorant fool. Regardless of the acts of some of its adherents, it is one of the world's great religions and great civilization. Should I judge Christianity by Jim Jones's group drinking the Kool-Aid? That you don't see the rock-headed ignorance you are spewing and find it to be an insult means that you are just one of those idiotic rubes whose pitiful thoughts and small ideas makes it difficult for well meaning and intelligent people to describe themselves as conservative.

1,182 posted on 08/03/2005 5:00:14 AM PDT by WildHorseCrash
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To: Ichneumon

Observation teaches me that inanimate to animate does not occur within observable time. Therefore, to have a mathematical model conclude the same should not be surprising.

Here is one take on the model:

http://www.arn.org/docs/dembski/wd_idtheory.htm


1,183 posted on 08/03/2005 5:01:32 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: bethelgrad

No, I used them to insult you; not Christians in general but you as an individual. Your attitude in response to a serious question made in good faith was pathetic enough, but you your finding an insult in me mentioning Islam shows you are a pathetic little man.


1,184 posted on 08/03/2005 5:04:42 AM PDT by WildHorseCrash
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To: eleni121; pby

pby, congratulations, you have just correctly identified a circular argument, vis. it's not a myth because it says it's not a myth. You might as wall say Scientific Creationism is true because I say so.

eleni121, Marx? Who brought Marx into this? Oh, I see, you have no answer so you resort to calling me names. Very good argument!


1,185 posted on 08/03/2005 5:25:46 AM PDT by WillMalven (It don't matter where you are when "the bomb" goes off, as long as you can say "What was that?")
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To: xzins
Thank you so much for the ping to your insights!

Intelligent design does not undermine science.

So very true. The original objective of the intelligent design movement was to rid science of the presupposition of methodological naturalism. IOW, ID wishes to expand the boundaries of science not reduce them.

1,186 posted on 08/03/2005 5:48:39 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MEGoody

1186!!!

Did you guys stay up all NIGHT yakking????


(Grr.... aNOTHR morning shot.)
1,187 posted on 08/03/2005 6:16:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: RobbyS

"Evolution offers no solution to the question how did the first cell come to be. Supporters such as Haeckel recognized this from the beginning. Ask the ordinary high school teacher how he would answer the question where does like come from? It would not come from evolutionary theory."

True enough. I hope you're not insinuating that this is some flaw in evolutionary theory.


1,188 posted on 08/03/2005 6:16:57 AM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Junior
Also, it is apparent from the early books of the OT that the Hebrews considered there might actually be other gods, but that none of them measured up to their particular diety. It is quite possible this is the case even today.

I surely agree here!


They were ALWAYS turning to other 'gods' for help.

Sad...

Looking for help where there is none.

1,189 posted on 08/03/2005 6:19:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: pby
Narby has previously stated that there is no evidence that Jesus is God's Son, and so on. Apparently for narby, and many others I suppose, if science can't prove it, then it doesn't exist, nor is it truth.

When you talk about people it's polite to ping them.

What evidence do you have that God exists?

There's an old book, that contains lots of claims of miracles, and claims made by people of being Gods son. I've seen magic tricks before, how do we know whether or not all of it was mere trickery? How do we know whether it was just all fiction?

There is quite a bit of non Biblical evidence for Jesus. The Koran for example, but it suffers from the same credibility issues as the Bible. There may be some non-religious, Roman evidence that exists. But still, how do we know he wasn't just a first century corrupt revival preacher /slash/ magician, that sleeps with all the farmers daughters?

You also have the emotion of religion that one can imagine is the Holy Spirit filling your heart, and thus "proof" that God is real. I witnessed an entire congregation of several hundred break down in tears one sunday after no sermon whatsoever. It was an amazing experience.

But similar things happen in non-religious things all the time. Everybody's seen a tearjerker movie and felt or seen people get emotionally involved. Tears streaming down their face. The story of Jesus dying on the cross for *your* sins is a pretty emotional story, when retold by a talented preacher.

pby, have you ever witnessed a miracle that could only be explained by God's direct hand? I'm not talking about a very sick person getting well, that happens all the time. I'm not talking about something happening that was improbable, but happened anyway. And I'm not talking about someone, even you, seeing "visions" or something, because the human mind can play awful tricks on you.

I'm talking about a miracle like a clearly dead person coming back to life. Not coming back after a couple of minutes (and claiming to have "seen" God), but after days? And not someone's who's been bitten by a puffer fish, and appears "dead", but is not. And I'm not talking about reading a story about such a thing, but witnessed it yourself, or you have direct evidence such as video of the event? Have you witnessed any genuine Godly miracle?

The bottom line is that I haven't seen any evidence for a God that can't be explained by non-Godly means. The Miracles of Jesus could have just been good magic, or pure fiction. The 12 disciples could have all just been corrupt men in the religion business, like Jim Jones of Koolaid fame and his 1000 followers.

There is no incontrovertible "proof" that your God, or any god exists.

So why do you believe in Him?

Just because it feels good?

Just because you're scared of where you will spend eternity? Or maybe that when you die, the lights just go out, and that's it?

Creationists claim that evolution people are "scared" to have ID taught in schools? Why on earth would that "scare" them? I think the fear of dying for all eternity is a very much scarier prospect, and if evolution and an old earth demonstrates that your religion is false, then it terrifies you immensely.

1,190 posted on 08/03/2005 6:21:14 AM PDT by narby (There are Bloggers, and then there are Freepers.)
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To: b_sharp
But if your opinion is based on incorrect data, your premises and conclusions may not be worth arguing with.

I agree here!

Or if...


...your opinion is based on incorrect data, your premises and conclusions may not be worth arguing with.
1,191 posted on 08/03/2005 6:21:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: PatrickHenry
But it will have no effect on the 'noids. Nothing ever does.
 
 
THAT can't be true!!!
 
Remember THIS guy....



 

 

Regarding this interjection, Martin Gardner writes:

"Darwin himself, as a young biologist aboard H.M.S. Beagle, was so thoroughly orthodox that the ship's officers laughed at his propensity for quoting Scripture. Then 'disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate,' he recalled, 'but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress.' The phrase 'by the creator,' in the final sentence of the selection chosen here, did not appear in the first edition of Origin of Species. It was added to the second edition to conciliate angry clerics. Darwin later wrote, 'I have long since regretted that I truckled to public opinion and used the Pentateuchal term of creation, by which I really meant 'appeared' by some wholly unknown process." [stress added] (Gardner, 1984)
 
 

From here ---> http://www.csuchico.edu/~curban/DarwinDayCollectionOneChapter.html


1,192 posted on 08/03/2005 6:23:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Dimensio
And the authority for this statement?

The mirror?

1,193 posted on 08/03/2005 6:24:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Analog Artist
I think most of these "creationists" are typical under-achieving losers who feel intellectually threatened by scientists and engineers, and are targetting us out of jealousy and to cover up their own inferiority complex.

Dang!!

Now I'm a minority IN a minority!!

1,194 posted on 08/03/2005 6:27:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
1186!!!

Is there some reason you posted that to me?

1,195 posted on 08/03/2005 6:32:54 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Analog Artist
Why is this "believable" theory less ridiculous than the entire humanity with different races spawning out of two people ?

I don't know if THIS line is supposed to be sarcasm or not, but the other day one of these C vs E threads had some info about goldfish varieties. The implication was that these separate wildly different types were evolved. Guided by man, of course, but still showing HOW "E" could have worked in the wild.

The point as made that if you started breeding these weird ones to each other, you'd get the original kinda plain carp back again.


Same with our differing dog breeds. Take them Taco Bell dogs and Great Danes and Pit Bulls - mix them up and out come mutts - looking more and more like the original wolves.

So it is with people. When distinct 'races' mate, you get a mixture, and when enough mixing takes place, you get what Adam and Eve where like, long ago.

1,196 posted on 08/03/2005 6:36:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: atlaw
We Lutherans have a great deal to atone for.
 
 
Too bad....
 
 

NIV Romans 3:20-26
 20.  Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
 21.  But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
 22.  This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
 23.  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
 24.  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
 25.  God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,  through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
 26.  he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
 
NIV Hebrews 2:17
   For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for  the sins of the people.

1,197 posted on 08/03/2005 6:41:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Analog Artist
You are

vicious!


;^)

1,198 posted on 08/03/2005 6:43:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Rockingham

As well as a 200 yo one:


James 3
1. Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
2. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
3. When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.
4. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go.
5. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark.
6. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
7. All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man,
8. but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9. With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.
10. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.
11. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?
12. My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
13. Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.


1,199 posted on 08/03/2005 6:48:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Rockingham
As an old line Catholic, I reject the biblical inerrancy of Christian fundamentalism and agree with evolution as a scientifically-proven mechanism of change in species, including the human species.

Is this like tradition trumps the Word?

1,200 posted on 08/03/2005 6:49:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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