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A change of command as Old Ironsides sets sail again
Boston Globe ^ | July 31, 2005 | Russell Nichols

Posted on 07/31/2005 8:05:56 AM PDT by Boston Blackie

A long time ago in an ocean not so far away, the USS Constitution blasted the British vessel HMS Guerriere into submission in a fierce firefight. Article Tools

In that battle off the coast of Nova Scotia during the War of 1812, British cannonballs appeared to bounce off the wooden hull of the Constitution, resulting in the ship being forever known as ''Old Ironsides."

For more than two centuries, the oldest commissioned warship in the world has stood as a symbol of patriotism for the American public, and particularly for those who have served aboard her.

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: ussconstitution
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1 posted on 07/31/2005 8:05:57 AM PDT by Boston Blackie
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To: Boston Blackie
Sounds like she didn't really "set sail." And sadly, there's little left of the original ship after 207 years. It may LOOK like the Constitution, but, like the document whose name it bears, it's only a modern reproduction. Unlike that document, it HAD to be or it would have ceased to exist.

If ever I could be convinced to go to Massachusetts, it would be to see this ship. She and the Titanic (and to a lesser degree, the Andrea Doria) have fascinated me my whole life. I built a model of Old Ironsides once, and when I was done, I could name every line, stay, halyard, sail, mast, and spar.

I would love to see her actually under sail.

2 posted on 07/31/2005 8:17:28 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: Boston Blackie

"A frigate without sails is a friggin shame" a wise group once said at Fenway Park.


3 posted on 07/31/2005 8:20:11 AM PDT by NonValueAdded ("Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots." [Jay Lessig, 2/7/2005])
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To: IronJack

I'm surprised that the good citizens of "Baaaastan" continue to allow such a blatant symbol of masculine dominance and potential violent warlike behavior in the waters of their fair city. They are certainly behind the good citizens of San Francisco who denied the Iowa a permanent berth.


4 posted on 07/31/2005 8:21:16 AM PDT by NaughtiusMaximus (Stop being a victim, resist social engineering.)
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To: Boston Blackie

It's great that this ship is maintained and honored as it is. This is our living history. I hope it stays commissioned forever.


5 posted on 07/31/2005 8:33:01 AM PDT by Mr. Keys
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To: Boston Blackie

It's a beautiful ship with a long history of proud service. Is anyone else feeling a mild sense of disppointment in the new CO including pop analogies ('the Force') in what should be (IMHO) a very solemn occasion?


6 posted on 07/31/2005 8:37:55 AM PDT by bt_dooftlook (Democrats - the "No Child/Left/Behind" Party)
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To: Boston Blackie

I had the honor of sailing on the Constituition during 1990 turnaround cruise. It was also the Coast Guard bicentennial. I was standing above the forward guns for the salute as the Barque Eagle passed port to port, crew in the rigging at attention, and then the 21 gun salute to the nation. 40 some odd cannon shots. Smell of cordite in my dress blues for weeks!


7 posted on 07/31/2005 8:51:42 AM PDT by Coastie ("You have to go out. You don't have to come back"- Old USCG motto.)
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To: IronJack; Boston Blackie
I hate to tell you this, but the British have us beat. The battleship Victory, Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar, is still in commission in Portsmouth, England. Built in 1765, she is 33 years older than the Constitution.

On a side note, she is also the last wooden ship-of-the-line to be damaged in combat, taking a German 500-pounder during the Battle of Britain, just a few days after one of her sister ships was destroyed by a German attack.

8 posted on 07/31/2005 9:05:03 AM PDT by Stonewall Jackson (Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. - John Adams)
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To: Coastie
I had the honor of sailing on the Constituition during 1990 turnaround cruise. It was also the Coast Guard bicentennial. I was standing above the forward guns for the salute as the Barque Eagle passed port to port, crew in the rigging at attention, and then the 21 gun salute to the nation. 40 some odd cannon shots. Smell of cordite in my dress blues for weeks!

Better than sex.

9 posted on 07/31/2005 9:25:00 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: Stonewall Jackson

Glad I read through the posts. I was going to post about the HMS Victory when I saw your post. The Victory has a nice on line tour a person can take.


10 posted on 07/31/2005 9:26:32 AM PDT by PeteB570
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To: Boston Blackie

SUPER FRIGATES - AMERICA'S HIGH TECH WEAPONS OF THE 1790's
by Steve McQuillan

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/supfrig.htm

The year is 1812 and the United States is at war. Like the war of our recent past, the subject of conversation around the world was American military technology. The focus of attention at that time, however, was on America's forty-four gun "super" frigates. During the first eight months of 1812 these American 44 gun frigates had, in battles fought on the high seas with frigates of the English navy, overcome those English frigates in each of the three ship to ship actions fought between them. To understand the scope of this accomplishment and why it caught even the attention of the Emperor Bonaparte, a brief understanding of naval power in 1812 is required.


The British navy in 1812 was made up of 191 ships of the line, 245 frigates of 50 guns or more and numerous other smaller warships giving it over 860 ships altogether. (Another 56 ships were in the process of construction including three 120 gun ships of the line). The English navy time and again during the preceding twenty years had humbled the navies of France, Spain, Denmark, Turkey, Algeria, Russia and Holland. In the twenty years preceding 1812 the ships of his majesty's navy had fought in over 200 single ship to ship engagements and lost in but five. The last time an English ship had lost a ship to ship action had been seven years earlier when in 1805 the French Milan had bested the HMS Cleopatra. One consequence of this seemingly unending line of victories was that by 1812 over 170 ships on the English roll were ships captured during combat. (This total included 96 French, 39 Danish and 18 Spanish ships) English naval victories had come to be expected by captains and sailors of not only of the Brtish navy but those of the ships which they fought. That attitude was rudely shaken in 1812 when the HMS Guerre (38) was destroyed by the USS Constitution (44), the HMS Macedon (49) captured by the USS United States (44) and the HMS Java (44) taken by the USS Constitution.


The navy of the United States in 1812 consisted of some 50 ships. A congressional committee in early 1812 had determined that a fleet of 12 ships of the line and 20 frigates would be large enough to protect the U.S. because of how thinly spread the English fleet was stretched blockading France. Ships of the line were reserved for the major military and economic powers, however, and something Congress decided the United States could not afford. *see note1


The largest ships in the U.S. fleet in 1812 were the 44 gun frigates, the Constitution, United States and President. Launched between 1798 and 1800 these three ships were built principally to protect U.S. commerce from the Barbary pirates. Because of the threat presented by the Barbary states, the United States' Congress voted in 1794 to build four 44 gun and two 38 gun frigates. (That number was decided on the fact that the Portuguese had adequately blockaded the Barbary states with three ships of the line)

(snip)


11 posted on 07/31/2005 9:29:55 AM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: NaughtiusMaximus
There's a WWII era destroyer on the other side of pier too.

If you want a idea of what life was like on a wooden warship, Melville's White Jacket is a pretty good read,
if not partially purloined and somewhat exaggerated.

12 posted on 07/31/2005 9:51:21 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Coastie

An honor indeed!

I viewed this year's turnaround cruise from Castle Island...fantastic.


13 posted on 07/31/2005 10:51:55 AM PDT by Boston Blackie
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To: IronJack
Sounds like she didn't really "set sail." And sadly, there's little left of the original ship after 207 years. It may LOOK like the Constitution, but, like the document whose name it bears, it's only a modern reproduction.

Here's a philosophical question for you: at what POINT did the USS Constitution cease to be an original? Where was the "tipping point" when "Old Ironsides" went from being an 'original' to a 'reproduction'? I first read a question like this involving "Cleopatra's Barge", but it is equally applicable here.

14 posted on 07/31/2005 12:09:03 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: Stonewall Jackson
The battleship Victory, Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar, is still in commission in Portsmouth, England. Built in 1765, she is 33 years older than the Constitution.

HMS Victory is certainly the older vessel, but is she still officially "in commission"? Don't know.

15 posted on 07/31/2005 12:11:26 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: Tallguy
Yes, she's still in commission.

Here's part of the info from her official website; www.hms-victory.com

HMS Victory stands today as the world's oldest commissioned warship. Still manned by Officers and Ratings of the Royal Navy, the Victory has seen over 200 years of almost continuous service. Best known for her role in the Battle of Trafalgar, the Victory currently has a dual role as the flagship of the Second Sea Lord and as a living museum to the Georgian navy. Launched in 1765 at Chatham Dockyard, the Victory was commissioned in 1778 and continued in active service for the next 32 years. In 1812 the Victory was retired from frontline duty and anchored in Portsmouth Harbour, on the south coast of England. For the next 110 years the Victory remained at her moorings in Portsmouth Harbour fulfilling a combination of practical and ceremonial roles. In 1922, amid fears for her continued survival, the Victory was moved into Portsmouth's Royal Naval Dockyard and placed in No2 Dry Dock. Work then began on restoring the Victory to her 'fighting' 1805 condition. Open to the public all year round, HMS Victory allows the visitor to explore the world of the Georgian navy, experiencing both the ship herself and the lives of the men who lived within her 'wooden world'.

16 posted on 07/31/2005 12:31:29 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson
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To: Valin
Nice, I was just re-reading The Fortune of War by Patrick O'Brien - # 6 of the Aubrey-Maturin series. A great read to catch the spirit of the times.
17 posted on 07/31/2005 1:11:07 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: Tallguy
Arbitrarily, I'd say when 50 percent of the original ship was replaced. Or when whatever constitutes the core of the ship was "updated" or modified.

I'm not sure how extensive the repeated repairs to the ship have been, but I can't imagine that her decks are the same planking that "knew the conquered knee." Wood and seawater don't mix well, when you throw in time as a seasoning.

But whatever remains of the physical ship, the spirit she conjures up is as fresh as the salt spray in your face.

18 posted on 07/31/2005 1:53:54 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: Boston Blackie
The catwalk assembled above the forward guns for this occasion lifted about an inch with each round from the 32 pounders (I think they were firing the 32 pounders, but could be wrong.) In any case the following day I felt like had been in a car wreck.

For those aguing about the HMS Victory and Old Ironsides and being the oldest commissioned warship, the key here is "afloat". I believe Victory sits in a drydock.

19 posted on 07/31/2005 2:11:49 PM PDT by Coastie ("You have to go out. You don't have to come back"- Old USCG motto.)
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To: IronJack

As Joshua Slocum noted when rebuilding the Spray. A vessel rebuilt using the original lines of Spray is still the Spray. So it doesn't matter how much of a vessel is replaced. It's still the same vessel. It's not a "reproduction". It's still USS Constituition.


20 posted on 07/31/2005 2:35:34 PM PDT by Coastie ("You have to go out. You don't have to come back"- Old USCG motto.)
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