American Families Are Hungry Too; CAFTA-DR's Passage Questioned

CCN ^

[jpsb]

CAFTA and NAFTA cut a voluntary consumption tax(tariffs), true, but CAFTA and NAFTA also cut taxpayer (lost jobs) resulting in a higher tax burden for those of us left that still have good jobs. I also find it amazing how many so called conservative support a progressive income tax over a voluntary consumption tax .. tariffs.

[Toddsterpatriot]

resulting in a higher tax burden for those of us left that still have good jobs.

There are 21 million more jobs since NAFTA. And don't make me pull out the chart that shows incomes are higher as well.

[jpsb]

There are 21 million more jobs since NAFTA

Yes I hear Wal-mart and the other resalers of chicom goods are hiring. And real working wages are hanging in at the 1972-ish level or flat for over 30 years. Not something to brag about.

I also understand inflation is real low, so I wonder why it is that everything costs so much more today then a few years ago? Fuel, utilities, food all up big time, yet the government keeps telling me inflation is down. Taxes are also up, sales tax going up, property taxes thru the roof, school taxes up, but hea, if you say so then everything must be great.

[Toddsterpatriot]

US GDP now vs 1950's in chained 2000 dollars
2000 = 9.8 trillion 1953= 2.1 trillion
2001 = 9.9 trillion 1954= 2.1 trillion
2002 = 10.0 trillion 1955= 2.2 trillion
2003 = 10.3 trillion 1956= 2.3 trillion
2004 = 10.8 trillion 1957= 2.3 trillion

[Toddsterpatriot]

I also understand inflation is real low, so I wonder why it is that everything costs so much more today then a few years ago? Fuel, utilities, food all up big time, yet the government keeps telling me inflation is down.

My phone bill is down 75% in the last 2 years. And how is raising tariffs on imported food and other items going to reduce the cost of food and imported items again?

[expat_panama]

(lost jobs)

Always the crazy statement, never the reference.  I wouldn't mind your constantly repeating this horsehocky, if it weren't for the fact that you're using it as a reason to raise my taxes.  

You say my coffee, bananas, and chocolate purchases are voluntary and I say it's my money and not yours.  If you're out of work, don't want to work, and want us to take up a collection to help you out just go ahead and admit it.   If you're not out of work and don't need our money, then you've got nothing to loose and everything to gain by lower taxes for all.

[expat_panama]

...Fuel, utilities, food all up big time, yet the government keeps telling me inflation is down...

So not only are we having the worst economy since Hoover, we've also got Carter's double digit inflation and we didn't even know it!   I'm telling ya, we're sure lucky to have old jpsb's CPI figures to correct all those lies from the DOC! 

But seriously folks, isn't it just great how some people don't ever need to bother with all this research and data and stuff, and all they got to do is just walk out in the field put their hand on a rock look up in the sky and shout I FEEL THE INFLATION I FEEL IT!

[jpsb]

"Always the crazy statement, never the reference. I wouldn't mind your constantly repeating this horsehocky, if it weren't for the fact that you're using it as a reason to raise my taxes."

Like I said, enjoy your progressive income tax, since you are such a BIG supporter of progressive income taxes. I wonder why the founder put Tariffs in the Constitution but forgot to put in a progressive income tax?

Bet you just love all the cheap labor illegal immigrates too. By allowing NATFA, CAFTA, GAT and all the other trade deal countries to enter the US market tax free you are RISING MY INCOME TAXES AND I DON'T LIKE IT. Somebodies got to paid for government and yall are TAXING ME TO DEATH, so you can buy cheap foreign goods instead of putting Americans to work (and paying taxes). Greed does not even come close to describing yall free (that is not free) traders.

[expat_panama]

...the founder put Tariffs in the Constitution but forgot to put in a progressive income tax....

Sort of.   Some people believe in absolutes and some people (like my atheist sister) say there are no absolutes and everyone has their own truth.  I say there's no 'your constitution' or 'my constitution' but there is 'The Constitution" that we can both take out and everyone can be reading the same thing.  The founding fathers allowed for all kinds of taxes:  

(Article I, Section 8)  The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States;...

The founding fathers did the best they could, but they didn't completely agree with each other on everything.  I agree with some of the founding fathers and I think some of the other founding fathers were jerks; but as a whole they knew they weren't perfect, so they included Article V - Amendment.  The original constitution had no bill of rights but it included slavery.  All in all, that Artilce V was a good idea.

But I'm getting off topic --back to absolutes.  I believe that there is a CAFTA that makes it so congress can lower everyone's import taxes.  The top income tax rate when NAFTA went into effect was 39.6%.   The top rate didn't go up, it went to 38.6 and then to 35, while the deficit got smaller, employment as a percent of the population got bigger, wages got higher---

Dang!   There I go again with my belief in published constitutions, tax rates, population numbers, etc.

[Colorado Doug]

It sure sounds like you're making that up-- please prove us wrong. I did a bunch of searches and found out a lot about Brazil and steel in 1998, but nothing about an $8 billion gift to Brazil for their steel companies.

I don't make things up. It was part of a $41.5 billion IMF handout in November of 1998. Add to that a second handout of $30 billion more in August of 2002 and you are talking some real money (no pun intended). Brazil dumped steel and other products on the American market doing substantial damage to American industry. You can't call this free trade. It's heavily subsidized with our dollars and harmful to our own business. Do a search with Brazil, dumping and steel. This will give you an idea of just one industry. Broaden your search if you like.

"During November 1998, the IMF gave Brazil a $41.5 billion USD support loan after the emerging markets crash in Russia 98 and Asia 1997-98. And more recently in August 2002, the IMF again stepped up to the plate giving Brazil another line of credit for $30 billion USD support to help prevent a crash of the economy and to carry Brazil until the end of 2003 with enough cash in hand.

http://www.bankintroductions.com/brazil.html

[Colorado Doug]

"With steel, a key indicator of industrial development, use in China has soared and is now more than twice that of the United States: 258 million tons to 104 million tons in 2003." It should also be noted that a large part of the steel used in the usa is imported, something like 40 m/tons imported, also a large portion of the 80m/tons produced here is mini mills, I don't think mini mills are capable of producing high end steel.

The big difference is that USA went from producing half the world supply of steel to having to import more than a third of its needs. China now produces a surplus.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I don't make things up. It was part of a $41.5 billion IMF handout in November of 1998.

Thanks for the link. Still don't see anything about $8 billion going to their steel industry. Try again?

[Colorado Doug]

What's been in demand a lot lately is home building and oil drilling

That's why I hate to see Chinese workers drilling in Western Colorado with Chinese drilling rigs and illegals taking over the workforce in the building industry. I have been to job sites where with over a hundred workers, not one can speak English.

[Colorado Doug]

Thanks for the link. Still don't see anything about $8 billion going to their steel industry. Try again?

No, I don't think so. You have wasted enough of my time. You are a traitor, pure and simple, blinded by the money. You don't care one bit about your fellow Americans. If you were shown you a video clip of Clinton himself handing over the check and you still wouldn't accept it. Nothing will convince you of anything because selling out America is how you make your living. I only wish that you would drop "patriot" from your handle because that is the last thing you are.

[Toddsterpatriot]

No, I don't think so. You have wasted enough of my time. You are a traitor, pure and simple, blinded by the money.

You're a clown.

[expat_panama]

by Colorado Doug  130  " ...we give Brazil 8 billion dollars to build up their steel industry? That is not free trade...."   137  "...Clinton did that in 1998 through the WTO. The 8 billion was just the United States share...."   170  "..I don't make things up. It was part of a $41.5 billion IMF handout in November of 1998...."

Thank you for providing a source for me to verify.  The source is good enough for the kind of political banter that impresses some freepers (133   "True, that is not free trade. I am wary of just handing out billions too") but the rest of us have families to feed and we have to be a lot more careful as to what stories we use in making business decisions.  

International Monetary Fund Press Release No. 98/59     "...The International Monetary Fund (IMF) today approved Brazil’s request for a three-year stand-by credit equivalent to SDR 13,025 million (about US$18.1 billion) in support of the government’s economic and financial program. "

This is a thread about a CAFTA article where the writer wants us to give up our CAFTA tax-cut to feed the 'hungry'.  You suggested that this was a good idea for my family's grocery money to be taken in taxes to feed other people's families, because CAFTA would be like when US taxpayers gave $8 billion through the WTO to Brazil in 1998.  We now see that this was actually an IMF (not WTO) stand by credit (not a gift, not even a loan).  That stand by credit was never exercised so there was no debit to the US treasury.   So this $8 billion Brazil story hasn't made me want to share my family's grocery money with the 'hungry'; but I'm not closed minded, let me know if you find something else.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Thanks for posting some actual facts. Reading Doug's post is like drinking Coors, guaranteed not to fill you up with pesky facts.

[expat_panama]

I have been to job sites where with over a hundred workers, not one can speak English...

Interesting.  I've been to job sites with over a hundred workers, where everyone speaks English --in Latin America.  That was years ago and I've since gotten out of construction field work to an office where I pour data instead of concrete.   I still like to go out on the farm here and dig ditches for exercise, but IMHO it's a waste of talent to have Americans pound nails. 

With all the American bashing that's so popular lately it's easy to loose sight of the fact that Americans are so extremely talented and productive.  Most people don't realize that ('fer instance) that over the last 50 years the real wages of the American worker has tripled because his output has gone up eight-fold.

[expat_panama]

LOL!

Aw, Doug's a good guy.  You got to admit he'd be great for keeping a party lively (so long as we didn't have anyone over who'd mind being called a traitor once in a while).  I just wouldn't want him around the office managing funds.

[nyconse]

Drive through the south...in town after town you see empty mills that were used in the garment industry. Drive to Buffalo, Take a look at the empty steel mills. General Motors has less than half the workers it had in 1992. You may not want to 'believe it' but it's the truth. You may work for a manufacturer-maybe a small one or a large one, but mark my words your job is endangered. I do not believe you can be a great country if you manufacture nothing. The standard of living is going to take a big dive in the next 15 years or so because the good paying jobs are less plentiful. Global trade is BS...Americans have to follow all rules while foreign countries do as they please. The WTO hates American and has ruled against us even when we are in the right. There is no level playing field. Multi-national corporations give plenty of money to both political parties which is why CAFTA was always going to pass. Just because CAFTA and NAFTA are Republican initiatives doesn't mean it's good for the country. As for building, in my area the illegals have driven the wages to a new low. The lack of decent jobs with benefits will lead to socialism. This will benefit the Democrats and put the Republicans squarely back in the minority.